North vs South
Oct222009
Here’s something I’ve probably never mentioned before: I hate writing male POV. Especially romantic male POV, which I strongly suspect is an oxymoron. I asked a friend of mine once what he thought about during sex. He said, “Is this a trick question?” I said, “No, I’m a writer, you’re a writer, if I’m writing a sex scene in male POV, what is he thinking?” And he told me. I said, “And after my career is over, how will I make my living?” Because nobody wants to read that stuff. At least nobody who usually reads my books does; there’s an audience for anything. So I never write a male POV sex scene, but even that doesn’t solve the problem because male thought and speech patterns are in general vastly different from female patterns no matter what they’re doing.
So for the past four years or so I have solved the problem by making Bob Mayer write the male POVs, and I must say, my books were vastly better for it. However, you will notice there still are no male POV sex scenes. He kept sending me scenes saying, “Here’s your sex scene,” but they were always foreplay scenes, he’d never write the hard core stuff. I blame the nuns from his elementary school. The other stuff was great, though, so I kept him. But now I’m out in the cold cruel publishing world alone again, and I have to do male POV. Hate it. Hate it, hate it, hate it. Because I am bad at it. Which brings us to this scene, the second one in AKMG as I promised. The problem is, these guy are chatting. In my experience, men don’t chat. They argue, they insult each other, they silently watch the game together, but they don’t discuss much of anything, especially relationships. So I have strong suspicion that this whole scene is just XY chromosome wrong. And that’s even before I get to the conflict box and all the anvils. Plus it’s too long. It drags. It fails to enchant.
My next book is in first person female, no male POV at all. Can’t wait.
*****************************************************************************************************
After Andie left, North sat for a moment wondering what the hell he’d just done. He’d had the resumes of several excellent nannies on his desk, and he’d hired his ex-wife instead. He tried to tell himself it had been an intuitive leap of judgment, but it had pretty much just been a knee jerk lurch. She was getting married. He didn’t like it. Hell, he thought, deliberately not thinking about the warm flush of her skin, or the light in her eyes, or how her hair had fallen out of that stupid knot on the back of her head and uncoiled down the curve of her neck. He’d have put her out of his mind completely if she hadn’t mentioned blow jobs. Which were irrelevant because he and Andie were over. She was right: draw a line under it.
He went back to work, making notes on his current case file as the sun dimmed and the shadows grew longer and Kristin left for the night, his black capital letters spaced evenly in straight rows, as firm and as clear as his thinking—
He stopped and frowned at the page. Instead of “Indiana” he’d written “Andiana.” He marked an “I” over the “A” but the word sat there on the page, misspelled and blotted, a dark spot on the clear pattern of his day.
There was a knock on the door at the same time it opened.
“North!” his brother Sullivan said as he came in, his tie loosened and his face as genial as ever under his flop of brown hair.
“Sullivan.” North nodded. “You’re looking well. Paris must have agreed with you.”
“Everything agrees with me. You, however, look like hell.” Sullivan lounged into the same chair Andie had taken and put his feet on the desk. “You can’t work twenty-four-seven, North. It’s not healthy.”
“I like my work. How’s Mother?”
“Now that’s health. That woman was built for distance.”
North pictured their elegant, white-haired mother running a marathon in her pearls, kicking any upstarts out of the way with the pointed end of her Manolo Blahnicks as she crossed the finish line.
“It’s you I’m worried about,” Sullivan was saying. “You’re working too hard, too much on your plate, trying to run the whole practice with Mother gone—”
“My plate is fine. However, I am in the middle of—”
“No, no, it’s time I helped out.” Sullivan smiled at him. “I’ve been thinking about what I could do and I figured you’d want me to stay out of the office.”
“You’re always welcome here,” North lied. “Not now because I have this case—”
Sullivan grin widened. “You’d fall on your number two pencil before you’d let me practice here.”
North looked down at the black pen mark that made “Andiana” such a blot. A number two pencil would be a good idea if he was going to start making mistakes.
“I was thinking of something a little more in my area and out of yours,” Sullivan said. “You know. People. You’re not a people person, North. I am.”
“People.” North turned the top sheet on his legal pad over so he didn’t have to look at the blot.
“You remember those two kids that second cousin left you awhile back?”
“Yes,” North said, fairly sure that had been a rhetorical question, although with Sullivan, you never knew.
“I thought I might drop in, check on things for you, see how the they’re doing.”
North nodded. “You want to ‘drop in’ to the wilds of southern Ohio to visit two children you’ve never met.”
“Yes.”
“Why?”
“Well.” Sullivan took his feet off the desk and leaned forward in his chair and frowned, evidently trying to look serious. “I’ve been worried about them.”
North sat back, knowing he wasn’t going to get any work done until he got to the bottom of Sullivan’s sudden enthusiasm for children. “Why do you really want to go down there?”
Sullivan grinned at him. “The house.”
“The house isn’t worth anything. It’s in the middle of nowhere.”
“It’s haunted.”
“Sullivan, there are no such things as ghosts,” North said, and for a moment he was twelve again and Sullivan was six, staring wide-eyed into the room where their father was laid out in his coffin. “He’s not going to sit up, Southie,” North had said then. “He’s dead. There’s no such thing as ghosts.”
“I know that,” Sullivan said now. “But I want to see a house that everybody thinks is haunted.”
“’Everybody’ being a nanny who got bored and wanted out.”
“Other people have thought so, lots of rumors. So I thought I’d go down there and talk to some of the people. See what’s going on.”
“And how did you find out about these rumors?”
“I did some research for a friend of mine. She’s interested in hauntings, and she looked me up at a party and talked to me about the house and, you know, it is interesting.”
“She,” North said, Sullivan’s motives becoming much clearer now. The combination of a shiny new hobby and a shiny new girlfriend must have been irresistible.
“Suzanne Twomey. The ghost thing is fascinating, North. I’ve talked to—”
“Suzanne Twomey?” North thought of the tiny, sharp-faced, sharp-tongued newscaster he’d avoided after one viewing. “The little blonde with the teeth on channel 12?”
“They’re very good teeth,” Sullivan said, going for indignant and missing.
“They look like they were very expensive,” North said and remembered Andie the first time he’d seen her, her big eyes dancing , her curly hair wild, her wide smile with her overlapped front teeth. She’d never had her teeth fixed.
“Well, you need good teeth for TV.”
“True.” That had been the first thing his mother had said about her. “For god’s sake, North, get her teeth fixed.”
“The close-ups are murder,” Sullivan said.
And he’d said, “I like her teeth. I like everything about her. And now you do, too, Mother.”
Sullivan was looking at him oddly. “Are you okay?”
“I’m fine,” North said.
“Okay. Well, then, I’d like to take Suzie down there and look into the ghosts. I can check on the kids for you while I’m there.”
“I’d prefer you wouldn’t,” North said bluntly. “I don’t see Suzie Twomey being a good experience for them.”
“No, no, she’s not interested in reporting on kids any more, she’s on to ghosts now. She found out that the house was originally a haunted house in England and she’s very excited about it. Did you know they brought the house over here in pieces and rebuilt it?” Sullivan shook his head, incredulous. “Suzie could be really grateful if I took her down there. Plus, I’d get to investigate a haunted house. I’ve been reading a lot about this, North, and I think there might be something in it for me.”
“Investigating ghosts?” North said.
“I’ve talked to two highly regarded ghost experts and there’s something behind this stuff. Plus I told them that there’s a haunted house in the family and one of them would like to see it. Suzie would like to see it. I’d like to see it. We won’t talk to the kids.”
“The children own the house, so it’s not in our immediate family,” North said, picking up his pencil again. “And you’re not going to disrupt their lives because you think you might like to be a Ghostbuster.”
“No, no, I told you, we won’t bother the kids. My plan is that I take Suzie and Dennis, the expert, down there, we talk to people—not the kids, the adults around there—I see what’s going on and report back to you, you get to know the kids are safe, Dennis gets more research, Suzie gets her video whatsis . . .” Sullivan shrugged. “We all win. Plus, I get away from Columbus before Mother gets back from Paris. She doesn’t like Suzie. Says she’s all teeth and hair.”
North looked at his little brother with an exasperation he hadn’t felt in years. Southie’s permanently thirteen, Andie had said. Thirty-four hobbies and a hard-on. But she’d been laughing when she’d said it . . . “Southie, when are you going to stand up to Mother?”
“Southie?”
“What?”
“You called me Southie. You haven’t called me that in years.”
North sighed. “Well, grow up and I’ll never call you that again. You’re running down there because you don’t want to face Mother with your latest career plan or girlfriend. It’s not much of a rebellion if you keep running away.”
“I’m not rebelling. I don’t have anything to rebel against. I have a great life. And to keep my life great, I’d like to avoid unpleasantness while learning about something that interests me and makes my girlfriend happy. Plus the last nanny quit last week so the kids are there alone. That’s not—”
“The children are not alone.”
“You hired another nanny?” Sullivan shook his head. “She won’t last. Better I should go–”
“This one will last,” North said. “I sent Andromeda.”
“Andie?” Sullivan whistled and then grinned. “Ghosts vs. Andie. The supernatural is going to get its ass kicked. I didn’t even know she was back in town. When did you talk to her?”
“Today. She’s going down there tomorrow.”
Sullivan smiled. “Called me Southie, did she?”
“What?”
“That’s why you called me Southie. Andie did it first.”
“Yes,” North said, realizing it was true. Half an hour with Andie and ten years were yesterday.
“She changed much?”
“Her hair’s . . . different,” North said, remembering her sitting in that chair, bundled up in an awful suit jacket, all those crazy curls yanked back, her face scowling as she argued with him. And then that one lock of hair, sliding down her neck—
“Her hair’s different?” Southie said. “You see your ex-wife for the first time in ten years and that’s all you got?”
“She looked . . .” Serious. Tense. Her old bounce gone. “I think she’s had a bad time.”
Southie’s face clouded over. “Aw, hell. That’s a shame.” Then he smiled. “She can probably use my help.”
North thought of Andie opening the door and finding Southie and his toothy, microphone-wielding girlfriend on the step with some charlatan ghost expert. “No.”
“Maybe she could use your help,” Southie said, grinning. “The two of you used to—”
“She’s getting married again. Now if we’re finished here . . .” North looked back to his notes as a hint, but when Southie didn’t say anything, he looked up.
“I’m sorry,” Southie said, his face kind. “I really am, North.”
The twinge he’d felt when she’d told him stabbed at him and he put a lid on it again. “Why? We’ve been divorced for ten years. It’s not as if I thought she was coming back.”
“Yeah but it was still a shock, wasn’t it? At least it is to me. Maybe I thought she was coming back.”
“Well, she’s not,” North said, more sharply than he’d intended.
“So, who’s the guy? What do we know about him?”
Southie looked serious now which was always a bad sign.
“Will Spenser. The writer.”
“The true crime guy?” Southie said, raising his eyebrows.
“I think he writes mystery fiction, too.”
“Probably not much difference. What did Gabe find out about him?”
North gathered his patience. “I did not put a private detective on my ex-wife’s fiance.”
“Right, she was just here, you haven’t had time. Want me to call him?”
“No,” North said.
Southie shook his head. “You know, she used to be family. As far as I’m concerned she still is. We need to look out for her. This guy could have anything in his past. He’s a writer, for Christ’s sake.”
“No,” North said.
“And I should go down and check on her at that house,” Southie went on as if he hadn’t spoken. “I can’t believe you sent her down there without back-up. God knows what’s down there.”
“Two kids and a housekeeper. You’re not going.”
Southie sighed. “Suzie’s not going to be happy.”
“Such is life.”
Southie hesitated and the silence stretched out. “All right then,” he said, standing up. “You going to see Andie again?”
“No. You have a good evening.” North flipped the page back to where it had been as a signal for Southie to leave and saw the “Andiana” in the middle of the page again. “Damn.”
“What’s wrong?” Southie said.
“I made a mistake.” North flipped the pad shut, annoyed with himself.
“Sending Andie down there?”
“What?” he said, looking up.
“You think you made a mistake sending Andie down there?”
“No,” North said and then thought about Andie, down in the wilds. It was probably her natural habitat. She’d been wandering around ever since they’d divorced, moving someplace new every year, teaching in some really godforsaken places. Maybe that had been his mistake, keeping her in the city. Trying to keep her at all. He shook his head. “No, it wasn’t a mistake. She’ll handle things.”
“Yeah, she will,” Southie said, his voice odd, and when North looked up, he saw Southie regarding him sympathetically. “Maybe you should go down. Get out of the office, check to make sure she’s all right. Spend a night in the place so you know what it’s like.”
“She’s fine.”
Southie waited a moment and then said quietly, “You could have gone after her, you know.”
North looked at him blankly. “Why would I go after her? She’ll be fine down there.”
“Not now. Then. When she left. You could have gone—”
“No.”
“You ever think maybe that divorce was a mistake?”
“No,” North said, putting as much you-should-leave-now in his voice as possible.
“Because I always thought it was,” Southie said. “If you’d gone after her, you could have gotten her back. That’s all she wanted, she was just lonely—”
“Was there anything else?” North said coldly. “Because unlike you, I have work to do.”
“Yeah, that’s how you lost her.”
“Southie, it’s over,” North said, and even to his ears, his voice was cold.
“Right. Well, you have a good time with your work,” Southie said and left, shaking his head.
Damn it. The divorce hadn’t been a mistake. She’d been miserable. He’d been miserable because she was miserable. Going after her wouldn’t have changed that. They were both happier now. There was only so much Rita Coolidge a man could take. He had work to do.
She’d looked so good, so warm, so round, so everything he’d once wanted, rushing back in one afternoon—
Well, that was then and this was now, and now she was getting married again. Good for her. Moving on.
He pulled his notebook back in front of him and then thought, Maybe good for her. Because Southie was right, he didn’t know anything about this yahoo she was seeing. She probably didn’t either. Hell, she’d married him after twelve hours of sex, she could be lunging into another mistake.
He picked up the phone and called the detective agency that the firm used and ordered a background check on Will Spenser. It was the only sensible thing to do.
Then he flipped open the notebook to go back to work, saw the “Andiana” blot, and thought, Hell.
He ripped out the page and copied the whole thing over again. With no mistakes.
Filed in Writing
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125 Comments to 'North vs South'
On October 22, 2009 at 8:53 am Cathy said...
Ok, I’m terribly sorry, but I can’t get past desperately wondering what your friend said men thought about during sex. I suspect I already know, but you can’t just dangle a goodie like that and then merrily carry on! Just saying.
On October 22, 2009 at 9:35 am Eliza Evans said...
Hm. I never noticed your mail characters being too talky — I’m thinking of Gabe and the cousin (his name slips my mind) in Faking It. These guys are a little verbose but they’re brothers. After listening to my husband on the phone last night for an hour with his brother I could buy this.
Except the Manolo Blahnik bit. In my experience straight dudes rarely, if ever, think about shoe designers.
Thanks for the post! It’s given me a lot to think about.
On October 22, 2009 at 10:16 pm Eliza Evans said...
Um. I so meant Fast Women. That’s what I get for reading interesting blogs before 8a.
On October 23, 2009 at 2:18 am CatScott said...
I wanna second that motion about the Manolo Blahnik bit. Most guys don’t know that stuff. Men who work in the fashion industry and some gay men would recognize Manolos but certainly not a stuffy lawyer from Ohio.
On October 23, 2009 at 2:58 am Reb said...
And I’ll third it. That sentence pulled me right out of the scene. Designer shoes or expensive shoes, maybe. The designer’s name, nah.
On October 23, 2009 at 11:41 am Danielle said...
I would agree with all of the above. He would be more likely to lament the price of said shoes than know they were designer.
On October 23, 2009 at 2:46 pm Sierra said...
I know a lot of guys who wouldn’t know the brand, but I also know quite a few who do. My brother, who is ex-Air Force and straight, knows shoe designers. So do a lot of guys I know who are more conscious of their dress, and they’re lawyers and other business-types. I can see North being aware of the brand if he has to move in certain social circles, or if his mother is the type to drop the name of the designer more than once.
On October 23, 2009 at 4:13 pm CatScott said...
Good point, Danielle!
On October 22, 2009 at 10:28 am Kyra said...
I liked the insight into North’s feelings and his family. And brothers can be verbose. My brothers talk to each other. It happens. Especially if one brother is a Southie type. I honestly didn’t think it dragged but I never do and always like your rewrite better, so what do I know? And I like to pretend that the male POV in romantic fiction IS what my husband is secretly thinking … but I know I am delusional. My hubby insists that the thing in most male heads is old-time TV snow/static interspersed with brief infomercials about boobies and beer. I hope he is kidding …
On October 23, 2009 at 8:43 am Tori said...
Ha! So last night I asked my husband what DO guys (single guys) think about during sex. He refused to tell me. He said he can’t give away trade secrets. Now I’m dying to know, too.
On October 22, 2009 at 10:51 am Jen said...
I like the flow between the brothers as well. My husband is older than his brother but is the “Southie” of the two, and they can spend hours on the phone together, so I don’t think you need to worry about the depth of their conversation as a problem. Their voices are distinctive, and the course of the conversation does a good job of introducing their characters. It may be a little on the long side, but I’m not sure what might be cut – maybe some of the bit about the girlfriend?
What jumped out at me this time was the ten-year gap in Andie & North’s relationship. It didn’t stand out as much in the previous bits you’ve shared, but in this one, for some reason it hit me wrong. I think it’s too long of a gap – it’s hard to believe that anyone who has been divorced THAT long would (a) save alimony checks, (b) not have moved on or changed in some sense, or (c) still have repressed feelings for the other person. Maybe it’s just me, and maybe you have good reason – it DOES show how stuck-in-a-rut both characters are, but if that’s your intent I would have Southie make a bigger deal about it. Is it just me?
On October 22, 2009 at 3:24 pm Kate G said...
I hate to say it Jen, but it’s been twenty years AND I’m remarried, but a certain person’s name still stops my heart. It’s awful – but there it is.
On October 26, 2009 at 10:21 am Jen said...
Kate, I think I understand. Maybe not so much on the ‘feelings should be gone’ part, but something about the 10-years-and-nothing’s-changed just doesn’t quite sit right. North notices that she’s wearing her hair differently – maybe play this up a little so the time lapse is more obvious – so it really does feel like 10 years have gone by? I’m not sure.
On October 22, 2009 at 11:02 am Merry the CB said...
A lot of your readers are of the female persuasion, so maybe it’s okay to write male-male dialogue in a way that translates it into femalese. (Femglish?) There’s a lot of talking, but it would look funny if you wrote it like Hemingway would have, with a lot of pauses and very short sentences having to convey a whole lot of meaning.
I suppose it would seem more stereotypically masculine if they were cracking open a coupla brewskis or playing pool or something like that.
On October 22, 2009 at 11:05 am Chrissy Deffendall said...
First, let me say this: I appreciate men who will converse. My husband talks a lot. He says it’s because people make him nervous, and he’s trying to cover. They say, “It must be so much fun being married to him! He’s so interesting!” This makes him laugh. “If they only knew…”
It did seem a little long. Especially the bits involving Suzie. I think you could tighten that some. And there are eight lines of dialogue about Suzie’s and Andie’s respective mouthfuls of teeth.
Southie repeats himself a lot. Not always exact phrases, but concepts. Does he do that throughout the book? Is he just that type of person? I’ve known a few, so it’s not beyond me to accept if it’s true to his character.
There you go. My two cents’ worth.
I eagerly anticipate the book!
On October 22, 2009 at 11:07 am Janis said...
“…dangle a goodie..” Cathy, you did NOT just say that!!
On October 22, 2009 at 11:29 am Victoria said...
Don’t be so hard on yourself.
I have five brothers. In my experience brothers can and do talk to each other as much as women. They just use different word choices. When guys talk, especially brothers, less is more. Unless they’re in a bullshitting session, then all bets are off. Trust me on this.
I think, you’ve got the basic brother-to-brother chat off to a good start.
I would suggest less detail about what brand of shoe their mother wears and have South/Sullivan jab at North more. It can be subtle or not, but South came on as a pest and left as a confidante. That bothered me. Men aren’t that flexible, emotionally. Keep South pest-like throughout. It is also more brother-like to have South notice that North is bothered by his “Andiana” mistake right off. I got the impression South is a pre-emptive pest where North is concerned — at first. Show South’s juvenile side more. Make North’s thoughts about South, South’s girlfriend, his mother and Andi more terse. I’d also like to see South score at least one point off North. It would make him seem more of a threat/bother/annoyance to Andi and an excuse/reason for North to be where Andi and South are.
On October 22, 2009 at 7:39 pm Briana said...
Oh, the pest-confidante thing didn’t bother me at all, since most brothers I know (mine, my dad and uncles, my dad’s cousins) are all like that. They jab at each other mercilessly….until someone needs an ear or piece of solid advice. The switch is always happening.
On October 22, 2009 at 11:53 am CHRIS said...
I am sorry i am new at your books (which I am loving) but what is a Male POV?
On October 22, 2009 at 7:27 pm Jenny said...
POV stands for Point of View, the character through whose eyes you see the scene (I’m not sure that’s grammatical, but in a hotel about to go to dinner and I’m brain-fried after the flight).
So male POV is just the scene seen through a man’s eyes.
On October 22, 2009 at 11:55 am TerriO said...
This line cracked me up > “This guy could have anything in his past. He’s a writer, for Christ’s sake.”
I hate when people tell me I have to write my guys to sound like cavemen. Call me dilusional, but I refuse to believe all men are like that. And thankfully, some of the comments here back me up.
I do think you’ll find little places to cut for length, but the convo works for me. And I can see the ten year gap. If they really loved each other, I can believe in all this lingering mess hanging over both of them. And I can very much believe in people not changing in ten years.
On October 26, 2009 at 10:33 am Jen said...
Terri, I suppose you’re right. I think maybe I’m looking for something that either shows that it’s been a LONG ten years, or that the ten years have FLOWN by. I think in a situation like this, you’re either dwelling on it (the divorce) or ignoring it, and I guess I don’t get a feeling for either. It’s as if the divorce was such a natural part of life, such a smooth transition, that neither character noticed it & life just rolled on, and now it’s ten years later. Does this make any sense?
On October 22, 2009 at 12:12 pm Bethany said...
I agree that the name of the shoes is a bit much from a straight guy. I could see a comment about ridiculously expensive or something, but not the actual name of the designer.
It did feel a bit slow and wordy after getting so used to Bob’s male conversations but still more realistic than in a lot of female-focused fiction.
On October 22, 2009 at 12:28 pm Phyllis said...
It did feel a bit slow and repetitious. I could see it being a conversation that lasted 5 minutes instead of 10 (or whatever the pacing is).
And I love that the detective is Gabe
On October 22, 2009 at 2:22 pm Bethany said...
oh! totally did not notice that! That’s awesome! I love hearing about characters after their stories are done.
On October 23, 2009 at 12:07 am Susan said...
I liked that it was Gabe, too. But then the girlfriend’s name being Suzie bothered me b/c I started thinking about Riley and Suze.
On October 27, 2009 at 3:53 pm Myra said...
Ditto. Southie called her Suzie like Riley does in Fast Women and my mind started goint there. I thinks it’s funnt this book is flashing me back to Fast Women over and over (the couch and now suze) maybe I need to re-read it again
On October 22, 2009 at 12:30 pm Beki said...
Love the “Andiana” mistake he keeps seeing over and over again. Love him making his letters so perfect and just so, concentrating so nothing gets out of line, etc. It really clarifies for me who he is. I get him.
I also love Sullivan in an exasperated kind of way, but I’m the oldest sibling, too, and I had a Southie of my own. I also think because of the dynamic between the brothers you can get away with a lot of the guy chat you have going on here. No, it’s not normally how “men” would talk, but these aren’t men, they are brothers. And that’s a whole different animal. Southie can get in North’s way and be all messy about it, stomping around in his brother’s emotions and then trying to talk him into fixing his lost romance. I love that about Sullivan.
What I don’t like is Suzie’s name. I wrestled with it from the first time she’s mentioned because it gave me Fast Woman flashbacks. And then Gabe’s name popped in there and I started thinking, “Wait, is Suzie going to turn out to be Suze, maybe?” And if Suze hasn’t left the agency and started a career as a toothy tv journalist, maybe just change the woman’s name.
But that’s it. That’s all I got. I think it’s better than you think it is.
On October 22, 2009 at 7:30 pm Jenny said...
Oh, hell, I never thought about that. I put Gabe in just because we needed a private eye mentioned.
On October 23, 2009 at 7:28 pm Bonnie C said...
I went straight to FW, too, when i saw “Gabe”. I giggled and thought you’d done it on purpose.
My two cents: I know that “hell” and “just hell” are your versions of “crap” and that ilk, but I can’t think of any man – stuffed shirt, fictional or otherwise – that would use that/them as an epithet.
On October 22, 2009 at 12:38 pm Tori said...
I’d like to point out that I am a reader not a writer, and I generally like everything you write. Even the stuff that you think is crap I like, so my opinion is probably crap too, but… I think that scene was pretty good. For the record, I spend a lot of time around men, and in my experience I do hear them chat but not in the same way that women do for sure. Unless it is something historical or technical, they seem to tend to use less words and descriptions and when they get into emotional territory it gets even worse and turns into bantering with a lot of physical aggression. The only thing that jumped out at me as not quite right with this excerpt was when North referred to his mothers shoes as Manolo Blahnicks. Call me crazy, but most heterosexual men I know wouldn’t know a Manolo from a Hush Puppy and even if they did, they would probably not think of them as Manolo’s but as just plain heels.
I can’t wait to read the finished product! It seems like it’s been forever since you wrote a book on your own!
On October 22, 2009 at 12:50 pm Diane (TT) said...
The men in my life talk. Even my nephew, who is 16. My dad is mostly about conveying information, but he also thinks about movies and plays when he can’t sleep. My mom has made it clear that he must wait until morning to share his insights, though!
Bob’s life may be all about movement and action, but most of my life (and those of the men I know) takes place sitting at desks and conference tables and talking on the phone. Perhaps the scene could be a little shorter, but I don’t like to lose any of your words – more to revel in!
Have we met Suzanne Twomey before? The name sounds familiar. And Sullivan pretty much becomes “Southie” and stays that way, even when he’s being kind (but intrusive). Could his face be sympathetic, instead of kind? Equally galling to a control freak (North), but something about a kind face sounds weird to me.
I’m feeling spiritually akin to every snappish old lady in fiction: I keep wanting to tell people to stand up straight and stop mumbling. Apropos of nothing, I think.
On October 22, 2009 at 12:54 pm toni said...
I’m not sure what men you people have been around, but here in the south, we cannot shut them up. About everything. Anything. I own a construction company and have for 26 years — point being, I have been around dozens and dozens of men, on the job, listening to them in the other office when they thought I wasn’t able to hear them. They will not shut up. Their language is often more crude, blunt and they’ll call each other on bullshit pretty fast, but they’ll talk about all kinds of stuff. Also, I have two grown sons, 27 and 23, one is a SWAT police officer and the other is a fireman and seriously? Neither of them will shut up.
Maybe it’s just a southern thing.
On October 22, 2009 at 4:07 pm Tori said...
Toni, you could on to something with the southern thing. I live in the south and as I wrote above, the men most definitely talk.
On October 22, 2009 at 1:08 pm Cathy said...
I guess we Cathys think alike. I am with Cathy #1 above in wondering what the heck your friend told you men think about during sex.
On October 22, 2009 at 1:38 pm D. said...
I’m no Cathy, but I’m wondering, too. Please share. Please. Before I obsess.
On October 22, 2009 at 2:19 pm Beki said...
If you do share, please put a spoiler alert. I seriously Do.Not.Need.To.Know that.
On October 22, 2009 at 7:32 pm Jenny said...
Seriously, I do not need to write that. So, no on the sharing.
On October 22, 2009 at 1:31 pm helen said...
I have no problem with your men blabbing.Men do. BUT, I’m always startled and unnerved by how undiplomatic, blunt and downright unfiltered their comments to each other can be. It’s not mean, exactly, but they rarely seem to worry about causing offence when uttering their opinions to people they’re close to, the way women do when carefully choosing words on a topic that their friends may not want to discuss/hear about. So, I find Southie to be too polite to his bro and North not snarky enough with the ripostes.
For what it’s worth, I was also not buying the 10-year gap when I read your first chapter, but figured you must have a good reason for choosing that amount of time. However, having seen the others’ comments, and seeing that the 10-year gap is not sufficiently explained by Chapter 2, I think it’s fair to alert you to this red flag. Presumably both Andie and North are attractive, interesting people. I can’t imagine that they wouldn’t have been distracted enough by other love interests during that 10-year span, and therefore not as hung up on each other still. Five years, though, I can believe.
On October 22, 2009 at 1:34 pm D. said...
Overall, I like the info given in this scene. It’s obvious that North still has feelings for Andie, though they seem mostly physical at this point and, as such, could probably be a bit more crude–guys don’t think “soft and warm,” they think “hot and firm.” We get that he’s been the “man of the house” and therefore both loves and is exasperated by his brother in much the same way a father would be. And, in my experience (I have 4 brothers), brothers/family are always verbose. That said, it is a little bit flat. I think if you keep in mind that men don’t Chat and they don’t Converse, but they most certainly do Shoot The Shit, it’ll come.
Also, I agree about the Manolos. He might think about her kicking people with those ridiculously expensive, pointy little witch shoes she’s always wearing, but he’d never think of Manolos.
The hair thing is very good, though. Most guys I know (my husband included) are weirdly obsessive about women’s hair. They like it long and they like it down. I don’t know why. It just is.
Oh, and unfortunately, I don’t think Kyra’s husband was lying.
On October 22, 2009 at 6:29 pm Kyra said...
Drat!
On October 22, 2009 at 9:13 pm D. said...
Kyra, I just consulted my husband and he said, “Yah, that’s about right. Except the beer. There’s really not that much going on up there at that point.”
Sorry.
On October 25, 2009 at 9:25 pm Kelly said...
I don’t ask my husband what he’s thinking about after being together during a long silence, I ask him if he is thinking about something. The answer is usually, nope. During that same time, I’ve planned dinner, figured out the schedule for the rest of the week, identified an upcoming birthday/holiday or something, came up with a cure for cancer or world peace, well, not the last one, but you get the idea.
On October 22, 2009 at 1:42 pm Louis said...
I’m going to let you still wonder what men think about during sex.
Louis
On October 22, 2009 at 7:36 pm Jenny said...
Louis, you rat.
Or maybe not. Nice tact, Louis!
On October 22, 2009 at 2:25 pm Marta said...
What came first, people dropping the F-bomb every other word, or people being portrayed in books and film as dropping the F-bomb every other word? The latter, IMHO.
Regardless, I think you do a fine job portraying male conversations as they would be after having been run through a moderately good obscenity filter. I have three brothers, and you’ve caught the flavor of how they communicate with each other.
Well, except that they call each other Joe, a name belonging to nobody in our family. Sample conversation: “Hey, Joe, have you heard from Joe lately?” “No, Joe, I think Joe’s phone got stolen.” Notice, I’ve used the filter. I’m guessing the majority of us are deeply appreciative of that filter. As for Southie’s change in demeanor, that’s consistent as well. My brothers never jab at wounds, new or old.
Anyway, in the first scene, you fixed the flow problem by having Andie return the checks right off the bat. I think you might get something of the same effect here by having Southie’s motivation to see the house come out sooner, cutting most of the smokescreen he lays down, and lessening the back-and-forth about the girlfriend.
I love the running with pearls image of their mother, but the shoes would be described, not named. Like over-priced needle-toed shoes, or over-priced pointy-toed shoes, or anything else that includes over-priced.
On October 22, 2009 at 2:27 pm emily said...
i thought the amount of dialogue was just fine, but i wonder about the characters constantly calling each other by name. when i am discussing something i rarely use the other person’s name, and i don’t see anyone else doing this either.
i do get that it’s easy to get characters on a page confused though, and that’s an easy way to keep everything straight. i’m just wary of it messing with the tone/voice
On October 22, 2009 at 3:10 pm Marta said...
The name thing intrigued me, so I took another glance and found that except for their initial greeting, North called his brother Sullivan once and Southie twice. Also excepting the greeting, Sullivan called his brother North five times.
Most of the ‘name calling’ seemed to be for emphasis, they way you do when you want the person to really take you seriously. It seemed natural to me, particularly given Southern was the younger brother routinely not taken seriously. Like he needed to draw extra attention to what he was saying to make sure North really heard him.
Or, maybe I credited Southie with more feeling because he called his brother by name? Of course, now I’ll have to eavesdrop on all the conversations I can to get a baseline . . .
On October 22, 2009 at 2:28 pm Marta said...
Forgot to ask, is this Gabe from Fast Women? Gotta say, I always like guest appearances from characters in other books. Makes the Crusie world seem so connected.
On October 22, 2009 at 2:44 pm Diane L. said...
I don’t have anything original to offer but thought that I’d chime in with the chorus and say that North thinking the brand name Manolo Blahnicks also struck me as very unlikely and that ten years struck me as too long. Otherwise I loved it and thought that the conversation worked.
On October 22, 2009 at 4:09 pm Cathy said...
I don’t know – sometimes guys hear a brand name (or author’s name – ha) often enough that they throw it out there in conversation. If North grew up with a mom who loved the finer things, I can totally see him saying that.
On October 23, 2009 at 8:44 am Laura said...
I agree. My boss (a man) will do that because his wife refers to her shoes/clothes in that manner. I have been trained to refer to plants by their botanical names by a mother who consistently uses them. Our use of objects names are generally set by the person who we connect with them. If North’s mother insists that she only wears Manolo Blahnicks then that’s how such a detailed oriented person is going to think of them – especially if he’s likely the one to be paying the bills.
On October 22, 2009 at 3:11 pm PG said...
Hmm, maybe it’s just guys who have lived in London or NYC and thus get high fashion stuck in their faces a lot, but I know guys who have heard of Manolos and Jimmy Choos. They couldn’t distinguish them from Payless, but they have heard the names, and especially if they have clotheshorse women in their lives (mothers, sisters, wives, girlfriends) they know that those names = $$$.
But I agree that a guy wouldn’t know that Manolos tend to have pointy toes any more than he would know Christian Laboutins are famous for a red underside. That’s just a level of detail guys don’t care about.
Perhaps “kicking any upstarts out of the way with the pointed end of her high heeled shoes as she crossed the finish line”?
On October 22, 2009 at 3:13 pm JenK said...
My husband and my brother talk about relationships all the time. Of course- they do it in the garage surrounded by power tools with a beer in their hands, just to seem manly. But hey- what ever works for the testosterone-laden half of the population.
I like the scene and could easily picture two guys talking to each other in this way. I especially enjoyed this line at the end:
“He ripped out the page and copied the whole thing over again. With no mistakes.”
So very telling about the kind of guy North is. However I don’t like this line at the beginning,
“He’d have put her out of his mind completely if she hadn’t mentioned blow jobs.”
It seems out of character for a serious guy like North and it makes it seem like he just wants sex, not Andie, when I’m pretty sure he wants both. Also when your ex-wife comes visiting after 10 years you don’t put her out of your mind completely, even if she doesn’t mention blow jobs. You stew.
Have I mentioned how excited I am to read this book? SO excited.
On October 22, 2009 at 3:14 pm JenK said...
Also- the guys have a beer in their hands, not the power tools. See? This is why I am not a writer.
On October 22, 2009 at 6:44 pm toni said...
I loved that line because he’s clearly lying to himself and is in denial.
On October 22, 2009 at 3:22 pm Rachael said...
I like it. It’s a little rough, but shouldn’t take much polishing to make this work. I agree with Eliza Evan’s comment about the brand of shoe North’s mother wears. Yes, he comes from money, but it might sound better if you downgrade the full brand name into something that sounds like he could care less about it, like “Manolo-whats-its”. Also, the entrance of Southie needs a little work:
“Sullivan.” North nodded. “You’re looking well. Paris must have agreed with you.”
“Everything agrees with me. You, however, look like hell.” Sullivan lounged into the same chair Andie had taken and put his feet on the desk. “You can’t work twenty-four-seven, North. It’s not healthy.”
I was thrown off the rhythm you had already established with North’s reaction to Southie’s entrance. North had been lost in thought, which probably should have led to a feeling of slight annoyance, embarrassment, or at the very least a sign of suddenly being uncomfortable when interrupted by Southie. Instead, he reacts as if he might have anticipated his brother walking in, and (in my mind) sounds almost pleased to see him until Southie refers to North’s working all the time.
I don’t know if the reference to Paris is going to be explained more later or not, but it initially drew my attention more than what the conversation was about. I expected further explanation, so it took me a little while to realize they weren’t going to elaborate on Southie’s trip and why he had gone there.
That’s my two cents. Sorry if this doesn’t help.
On October 22, 2009 at 3:39 pm kate said...
When I was much younger there was a report that said men think of sex an average of every seven seconds. In that case, North’s first though when Andie left would be along the lines of “boy, I want some of THAT.” And thoughts of this sort would be popping into his head regularly throughout his discussion with Southie. This is why we don’t want an accurate accounting of male POV. The whole conversation about about Suzie would probably start out as it is now but Southie would quickly cut to the chase and admit that he hopes getting her in the house will get him in her pants. In a real conversation this would covered a few sentences unless they get to discussing her body, which goes back to the seven second rule. If Southie was there without an agenda they could ramble on forever, but he wants something and would probably get to the point quickly.
On October 22, 2009 at 4:36 pm Sure thing said...
Hmm, this will take some thinking.
But i’ve never had a problem with your male p.o.v in the books i’ve read – most were believable. But then they were outrageous in some way – witness Cal the serial dater and Davey the conman – you may not have been trying for “normal” as you feel you need for North?
On October 22, 2009 at 4:37 pm Lily Blues said...
” He’s not going to sit up, Southie… There are no such things as ghosts”
One of my all-time favorite lines EVER!!
On October 22, 2009 at 5:02 pm Kara said...
I liked the interaction between the brothers. I thought you had that about right for how men tend to communicate with each other.
I’m fairly certain that the excess teeth references need to be pared down, but I did like how they show the differences between the women in terms of what they care for. Suzie deals in appearances and Andie likes things to be true and real.
North knowing the name of the shoe designer would be believable if he got her the shoes for a birthday or Christmas. His mom sounds like the kind of person who would not hesitate to dictate exactly what she wants and where to go and get it.
This quote:
“I’d prefer you wouldn’t,” North said bluntly. “I don’t see Suzie Twomey being a good experience for them.”
“No, no, she’s not interested in reporting on kids any more, she’s on to ghosts now.
What does it mean that she isn’t reporting on kids any more? Is this going to become important to the story? In what way did she report on kids?
Southie is a bit ambivalent in my opinion. I get that he cares for his brother, but he changes from the immature guy with an agenda into the brother who wants North to be happy. I like that he zings North about not going after Andie though. That felt true. He strikes me as being more pushy than commiserating but he shows both.
Regarding the ten years since they split, I don’t think it is outside the realm of possibility. It is very obvious that they did not split because they stopped loving each other. They split over stupid misunderstandings. They have both probably shared parts of their lives with others, but never found anyone worth staying with. I think this is likely that they are still in love with each other.
I am really looking forward to reading this book when you are finished.
On October 22, 2009 at 6:07 pm Jennifer said...
It’s funny that you don’t like writing male POV. Of the literally thousands and thousands of romantic-type books I’ve read, Davy’s POV in Faking It is my favorite. Ever.
On October 22, 2009 at 8:30 pm Tori said...
Mine too! I <3 Davy!
On October 23, 2009 at 9:51 am Bec said...
Me too. I think Davey may have ruined me for real men.
On October 22, 2009 at 7:32 pm Lou said...
I’ve heard guys talking like this – but only when there aren’t any women around (at least none they know about). I’ve heard very detailed, lenthy conversations between men in grocery stores, shopping malls (they were waiting for their women to get back from the stores), and even in friend’s yards at barbeques. Guys talk about all kinds of personal things – just usually not around women.
So what I’m trying to say is that this conversation between brothers seemed quite real to me. Except for calling the shoes by name…
On October 22, 2009 at 7:33 pm Lou said...
Oh, and I too, am wondering what goes through a man’s mind during sex…
On October 22, 2009 at 7:49 pm Marta said...
In the majority of families, the legacy of childhood becomes a part each kid ends up playing well into adulthood, and sometimes all their lives. The roles aren’t assigned intentionally. They just happen. Say Jonny is always tripping, running into things, knocking things over; Jonny gets a rep for being clumsy. Within the family, Jonny’s always going to be the clumsy one. Doesn’t matter that his vision was corrected in his teens and he quit tripping. Doesn’t matter that other family members are the major spillers and breakers at clan gatherings. You ask them who’s the clumsiest, they’ll all say Jonny. Even Jonny will say he’s the clumsiest.
Southie’s character strikes me that way. North is the serious, responsible, older brother. You get the impression his childhood ended at twelve when their dad died. Being six years younger, by sheer contrast Southie’s going to look less serious, less responsible, and his childhood doesn’t end at twelve, so the contrast is going to be ever greater during his teen years. The part he ends up playing is the irresponsible, fun-loving brother. Everything he does as an adult is going to be seen by the family through that lens. Doesn’t mean it’s what he’s all about, though.
That’s my take on Southie, so far, and why I find it believable his character could start the scene as Mr. Irresponsible, then reveal a deeper side in concern for his brother. Unless, of course, I’m over-thinking it.
On October 23, 2009 at 6:06 pm misspiggy don'twannabe said...
Your description reminds me of Humphrey Bogart and William Holden in the original Sabrina. Hopefully, Southie, like William Holden grows up in the end.
Or was it William Holden? Damn, it’s hard to get old!
On October 25, 2009 at 9:07 pm Marta said...
Definitely William Holden. Such a great movie, and a change of pace for Bogart.
On October 22, 2009 at 8:53 pm Louise said...
No Marta, I don’t believe you’re over-thinking it. I have 3 sons and I notice that the older ones still seem to see the youngest as young and irresponsible, despite the fact that he has his own business and is a wonderful father to his baby boy. It’s not that they are grudging of their love and recognition, it’s that to give it they have to get past their preconceived ideas about him. For North to see Southie differently something big is going to have to happen further on in the story. Which I’m confident it will, despite his offhand manner. It’s foreshadowed by his concern for Andie and North. And in my experience brothers can go from needling each other to razor sharp concern in an instant if the need arises. I think that switch in Southie is an indicator of who he really is underneath and his connection to North.
The shoe thing would be credible if the guys had caught grief from their mother for not respecting them enough. In Australia we used to have a TV show where the son asked to borrow the car and the father said: ‘That’s not a car, son. That’s a Kingswood.’ (I know, it was the 70’s and you had to be there). Things like that can become legendary in families, but, frankly, it sounds like a lot of trouble to explain. So, unless you really need it…
I liked the Andiana thing, it showed me how rattled North was and after that I was on his side. I also liked the way the scene ends with North calling the PI. I could see the conflict grid working there. I was hooked after scene 1, I’m double hooked now. Thanks for sharing, Jenny.
On October 23, 2009 at 10:31 am Marta said...
“I think that switch in Southie is an indicator of who he really is underneath and his connection to North.”
Louise, you said it so much better than I did!
On October 22, 2009 at 9:54 pm GatorPerson said...
Too talky for men. They seemed to talk a long time on one subject. Maybe more silent communication? I have this visual image of them playing darts and interjecting their sentences between throws. Short, snarky, to the point.
Also, how do you pronounce Twomey? 2-Me? TWOM-ee? If the name is important, maybe explain somehow how to pronounce it.
On October 23, 2009 at 4:02 pm McB said...
I’ve never understood this. If men really don’t talk, how do they know what’s going on? Do they wait for women to tell them? And how would the reader, if the scene were more accurately mail POV, know anything? We’d have to be
fictionalmind readers of fictional people (syntax is probably important here).On October 22, 2009 at 10:34 pm Micki said...
OK, I took notes (-:.
First, have you considered the Male POV as through something like Penthouse Letters — especially those letters which are female POV, but you just know some guy wrote them? I’m not saying that explicit, but there’s a flavor. Of course, it probably is not true to life! But then again, my thoughts during sex are rarely anything you’d see in a romance novel. Especially if the living room is a shambles, I’m sad to say I think more about that than what’s going on in the bedroom.
Also, I read something very interesting in a Jane Austen bio about how she would give her characters traits that she originally knew in a person of the opposite sex. So, it suggests to me that the male/female differences are more likely human differences in many cases.
Love Southie’s voice; he seems really solid. North, though, seems a little . . . in the forming stages yet. He’s a little soft and unformed.
I have only a few men in my life, but I recently heard my co-workers dissing a lady in the office. “She looks like a bug . . . you know, a praying mantis or something.” I like the teeth and hair aspects of Suzanne, but maybe firm up why the teeth make North uneasy. (-: I’m guessing it’s the old toothed-hoo-ha thing.
Manolo Blahniks — yeah. You know, Manolos will be a footnote (har!) in history 10 years from now, and it’s probably more likely a guy would focus on the general impression, not the brand. And, I think he’s be more likely to imagine spike heels going through the heart, but pointy toes probably work.
I love the way Andie creeps into every part of North’s thought process. And I loved the pencil thing — how if he was going to start making mistakes, he better start using a pencil. It shows a very practical, flexible sort of idea that wants to make things go right.
(-: Oh, it’s going to be gooooodd!
On October 23, 2009 at 11:20 am Marta said...
“Especially if the living room is a shambles, I’m sad to say I think more about that than what’s going on in the bedroom.”
Micki, I’m so glad I’m not the only one!:) My ex once said I had to clean the house before I could have ‘fun’. But, it’s so distracting, isn’t it, ’cause your ‘need-to-do’ list tends to butt in whenever your brain starts to relax.
According to my what-males-think-during-sex sources, the snow/static Kyra mentioned is dead on. It never occurred to me before Jenny brought the subject up, but what an advantage that is! A brain-off switch that automatically activates during sex. Wow. That would be stupendous. I’ve been remarried over 20 years without the clean-house thing ever popping up (lol–sometimes it’s not about the house), but I would definitely sign up for one of those!
Wait a minute. Even better would be a manual switch. One I could control. Because, that’s where men get into a lot of trouble, when their brain automatically switches off. Okay, I’ve got to quit thinking about this, ’cause now I have a visual of a toggle switch in a guy’s brain that is directly tied to . . .
On October 22, 2009 at 11:12 pm Briana said...
Upon re-read, I think Southie’s change of attitude makes even more sense — when he talks to North about going after her, it seems like this might be the first time he’s said it, but he’s maybe always wanted to. North doesn’t invite that sort of thing and almost certainly wouldn’t have take Southie’s advice 10 years ago. Southie’s right, though, and it also speaks volumes about what kind of relationship HE would like with his big brother.
As far as cutting (or whatever), I think some of the stuff where North is thinking about her in the beginning could be cut — the stuff about her hair and her looks, etc. Because it’s in the later paragraphs and I think it’s more effective when it’s interspersed through what North is trying to do, just the way thoughts of her are creeping up on him.
Mm…The build-up to why Southie wants to go there drags a little. Not terribly, but it could be tightened. Once they’re talking about Andie, though, I like the pacing of it. Only…there’s a lot of telling and not showing. His face is “kind” and “sympathetic” and all that. What about changing that so Southie is trying to connect with North more — and it’s not working.
As for the conflict, the grid thing, it seems like Southie’s goal is more clear than North. North’s just trying to tell Southie “no.” But there isn’t really the resolution (not the right word) that leaves them completely at odds. Or, rather, I think it’s there, but it isn’t quite clear yet. (Especially on North’s side, for me.)
On October 23, 2009 at 9:21 pm D. said...
“Once they’re talking about Andie, though, I like the pacing of it. Only…there’s a lot of telling and not showing. His face is “kind” and “sympathetic” and all that.”
That’s it! That’s why it felt flat to me. It’s too passive. Phew. Thanks, Briana. I guess my editing skills need honing.
The other thing is that I’d like to see a bit more animation in North. He seems very one-dimensional in this scene. I understand that he’s a stuffy lawyer, but that’s not ALL he is, right? If there’s another side to him, I’d expect that Southie would be the most likely to have seen it on any sort of a regular basis.
One last thing, Southie’s name throws me (which is NOT to suggest that you change it). Having grown up in Massachusetts, I associate “Southie” with South Boston–the old Irish neighborhood. Kinda cute.
On October 23, 2009 at 1:16 am robena grant said...
I swear I’m not going to play with your words and copy the whole thing this time. : )
It only needs a little tightening in the dialogue, in one or two places. This chapter explains a lot of the background of both men, the way Southie feels about Andie and how deep down he worries about his big brother. It shows another glimpse of the mother and the men’s upbringing. And it also gives glimpses of North’s unresolved issues with Andie. All good.
I like the sense that your beginning to peel back, revealing little bits of information that show some of the hidden depths of the characters. I’d like a couple more specifics on North’s nature as, for this reader, Southie is more sympathetic on the page and I have to want to be with North. He’s my hero. I sense that North is driven and a little aloof, maybe even highly competitive, but I understand whatever aspects of his nature your showing us now have to lead to and be relevant to his character arc and of course I don’t know your whole story. I might be a bit off base in saying I’d like to see a glimpse of his competitive side (because I think he’s going to fight for her later) and that might also make him stronger on the page now. He knows he’s no longer married to her, but he has to wrestle with the idea that she should be with him and that he’s beside himself with jealousy over that damn writer. He sees red when he thinks of her making love to someone else yet feels stupid for admitting it because they’ve lived apart for ten years.
You’ve done this in the opening of the scene but in a soft way. I’d like a touch of ownership, a proprietary feeling, even though he knows we don’t “own” our lovers or spouses, and that thought alone makes him even angrier at himself. Because he’s a lawyer damn it, and he’s a very cultured and intelligent and rational human being. And that frustration could be shown toward the end of the scene after he and Southie touch briefly on his and Andie’s relationship, and perhaps even spar a little bit, like brother’s do.
On October 23, 2009 at 3:14 am Deanna Nelle said...
I like it. I thought it was a good dynamic between the brothers, although I agree that they could rag each other a little more. My husband is BY FAR the the bigger talker in our relationship, so it felt natural to me. You also have to consider what kind of men they are, how they have been raised and educated. Not every man communicates entirely in grunts; and a lawyer is going to be more verbose by nature.
Frankly I am not really interested in reading a ‘real’ male conversation, in which they belch and insult each other’s genetalia. I like Merry’s point of it being translated into ‘femalese’. It makes it easier for us to follow while still having a male flavor to it.
On October 23, 2009 at 3:23 am Reb said...
I work in a building full of professional guys and they talk. Lots.
One thing you could do to make it sound more male is have North think about Andie’s breasts instead of her warm skin and the light in her eyes.
On October 23, 2009 at 10:04 am Susan D said...
What? 65 comments before I even saw this post? How did that happen?
Anyway, before reading the scene or any comments, I have to comment about the Male POV Sex Scene thing. Speaking for myself (and possibly a few other women) we don’t want to read about what men are REALLY thinking during sex. We want to read about what we would LIKE them to be thinking during sex.
Does that help?
On October 23, 2009 at 1:04 pm marly said...
North – buttoned up, Southie – unbuttoned. I have two male friends like that. “Buttoned Up” genuinely likes “Unbuttoned” so he’s reasonably tolerant of and doesn’t snipe much at goofball remarks. But here’s the thing. We’re sure “Buttoned Up” has been carrying a torch for a long, long time. There’s betting about whether he’ll ever admit it. So, for us, the male POV is spot on and the male characters realistic. I agree with everyone about Davey, and Phin and Wes? I loved their conversations. Thanks for Gage – any chance you might let us know how Riley and Suze are doing? Unless, of course, they’re going to have a book of their own. John’s input – every male who’s ever watched “Sex & The City”, and every guy he knows did watch for the sex and nudity EVEN THOUGH THEY ALL PRETENDED IT WAS TO PLEASE THEIR LADIES knows about Manolos. Bottom line – we loved the scene.
On October 23, 2009 at 1:23 pm marly said...
Sorry, forgot to add the other male answers (3) about thinking processes during sex. Here goes: basically, it’s white noise interspersed with “Breast, good”, “Thigh, good”, “Ass, good”. Forget about those three – they’re Neanderthals. The women want dialogue – one of us fantasizes she hears Phin’s voice. So see? You do a great service for all womankind. This was a great lunch hour!
On October 23, 2009 at 1:34 pm Jackie said...
First, I love everything you write and I think this scene was great. I don’t think the 10 year gap needs to be changed because if they really loved each other it wouldn’t be impossible to believe that they still had feelings. I’m gonna sound like a complete girl here but just look at The Notebook, they had a 7 year gap and I had no trouble believing that. Gaps always make me a little sad, though, just because I think of all the years they’ve missed together. lol. I’m just a big sap.
I can’t really be a judge of man talk or if this was realistic because I’m not so great with male POV myself but as a reader I believed it. I’ve always thought you wrote male POV really well. However, I do agree with the shoe assesment. When I read the scene I paused at that line thinking the imagry it created was funny but something pulled me out of it and I didn’t realize it was North naming a designer until it was pointed out.
I’m so excited for this book. Everything you post about it just makes me more anxious to read it.
On October 23, 2009 at 2:03 pm me said...
I second Susan D. It’s what we want them to think, so we want to think they are capable of having intelligent conversations. So, therefore, I like them talking. Books would be very short indeed if men’s POVs were all grunts and scratching.
BTW, these characters remind me of something else. I can’t say that I read Turn of the Screw (I may have in college but blocked it from my memory), but I have seen the movie Sabrina about a zillion times. North = Linus and Southie = David? Maybe it’s just me. I’m not saying it’s bad! There’s a reason I’ve seen the movie a zillion times, because I like it, and it makes me like these two guys more because of that resemblance.
On October 23, 2009 at 2:23 pm Susan D said...
me…(that is, the above poster known as “me”), it’s not just you. The Boys from Sabrina (both versions) came to mind. Not a bad thing at all.
But here’s another thing, Jenny, and you might think I’m nuts, but as I read this, I also tried picturing Southie as a sister, not a brother. All that chat seemed to fall into place then.
On October 23, 2009 at 3:01 pm Lyn said...
All the lawyers I know were English majors and about half of them would drop law like a hot rock if they could make a living by writing. Let the boys dish. Shoveling out words is what lawyers do. Well, and rake in money, maybe.
On October 23, 2009 at 3:07 pm Sierra said...
So I went to reply to a comment earlier, hit “preview” and it posted it. I reread it, and I totally could have written it better. Darn the lack of a delete option.
My point was basically a comment on the Great Shoe Knowledge Debate. I do know some men who are completely out-of-the-loop when it comes to shoe brands, but I know more of them who at least know that Manolos are expensive heels, that red soles mean the shoes are insanely expensive and popular, etc. I also know a slightly smaller subset of men that can identify brands and styles, and they’re all straight men who have nothing to do with the fashion world – lawyers, ex-Air Force, art professors, etc.
Manolos have also become one of the best known heel brands, particularly because of Sex & the City, and they’re almost synonymous for “ridiculously expensive status shoes” now. I’m not at all surprised by North knowing his mother wears them, particularly if she designer-name drops, and the pointy toe comment could have been an observation on the style, not knowing it’s the Manolo signature look. It also sounds like they’re from an influential and wealthy family, which makes him picking up brand names from overheard discussions more likely.
Okay, done with my too long response. I liked the scene a lot, though, and they were just as verbose as my boyfriend and his friends. I can’t wait for the book.
On October 23, 2009 at 3:32 pm Melissa said...
The Manohlos threw me a little. All my men would just have said the pointy shoes. However, I thought the conversation – especially since they are brothers – was not too girl-chatty at all. It seems to me that the men in your other books (I’m thinking of Cal and Tony and Roger a little and Davey and Phin but different dynamic there) had real conversations. Riley and Gage had real conversations too. Bottom line – I’m a junkie for all things Crusie so this could be cut with Drano and I would still be grateful for the fix – but I thought it was good!
On October 23, 2009 at 3:38 pm JulieB said...
Maybe he could call them Barry Manilow shoes.
On October 23, 2009 at 4:17 pm Melissa Blue said...
I’ve asked a man what he thinks about. When he told me I couldn’t stop laughing and saying “Really?” I know this man isn’t an every man, but I’m sure a lot of men do the same.
Also, I’ve been a fly on the wall plenty of times when men talk. Yes, they censor a lot when aware A WOMAN is here, but if you stay quiet long enough, don’t make any sudden movements, you’d be surprised how much men talk about. The only big difference is that men don’t talk about the details unless the conversation IS about the details. Just think how in general and how different men and women give directions.Most men give streets. Most
women give landmarks.
Then again, it’s a novel, I don’t take the rules of “men and women” literally. If you build the character to know and act in a certain way then I’m on for the ride your taking me on. Maybe that’s the simple problem we, the reader, didn’t see the build up. Maybe we saw the facts as throw-aways. But, it’s there. If your mother and brother practically live in Paris then you should know fashion when it walks in on Manolo heels.
Ex: I once owned a Ford Mustang 1992 automatic steering. (Not a 5.0) As usual when you get a car you start to notice every single make and model thats like yours. I had that car for two years. I haven’t driven it in two years, but even when it’s late night and all I can see are the headlights I can tell you it’s a Ford Mustang.
Ok. I need more sleep because it feels like I just wrote in circles.
On October 23, 2009 at 5:09 pm Naked Under My Clothes said...
One time when my husband looked particularly thoughtful, I asked what he was thinking about. This is just about my favorite thing to do. Lots of times I hear about quantum physics or the value of the dollar or the relative merits of alloy and non-alloy wheels.
He looked sheepish and said, “I was trying to decide whether to get a clean towel when I take a shower in the morning.”
The idea of Southie as a sister…that’s intriguing. Though it might make Andromeda’s foibles less irritating to the mother.
On October 23, 2009 at 6:42 pm Robin S. Sorrentino said...
Okay, I haven’t read a the comments. Jenny, women don’t read romance and want to hear what a guy really thinks. We want male POV through a female writer’s slant. What we hope/wish/would like to believe they are thinking. That’s why they call it fiction. If we wanted to know what guys really wanted to think we’d just hang around behind the football/baseball/soccer etc game and listen. We’ve been there done that and it doesn’t do it for us. So we read romance. Even when we have guys we love and accept in all their Y chromosome glory, we like the fictionalized version we get from good female romance writers. Like you.
Enjoyed the scene but don’t think it’s what you will end up with.
(I’m married with three sons, 14-20, I have a fair feel for guy speak and think)
On October 24, 2009 at 2:13 am Penny said...
Two things: I have been married for 47 years and love my husband dearly but I still remember one other man I knew before I married that gives me warm fuzzy feelings. Secondly: my husband is a voracious reader and very intelligent. He loves to talk and has an opinion on just about everything. Also I’ve noticed that men tend to interject a lot of epithets when they think women aren’t listening, not my husband of course because he’s a GAM. LOL
I also agree with a lot of Robin’s comment about what women readers want.
On October 24, 2009 at 8:37 am McB said...
Keep Gabe as the name for the PI. Why not? He’s in Ohio, right? I like the crossover reference. And the shoes, being able to name the brand says a lot about their mother, such as she refers to her shoes that way because she considers brand dropping important.
On October 24, 2009 at 9:32 am Naked Under My Clothes said...
FWIW, my sister has a theory that Eagles songs resonate with women because they sing about men the way women would like to think men are. “Desperado,” anyone? You better let somebody love you…before it’s too-oo-oo-ooo-oo-oo….late.
On October 24, 2009 at 11:48 am Marta said...
Love that song! And, it’s relevant to the whole male POV discussion as it’s one guy giving serious advice to another, and it was written by two guys.
On October 24, 2009 at 12:26 pm Jenny said...
The Blahnick reference is gone. I can justify it by saying North would have heard his mother call them that, but that’s not the point. The point is that it threw a LOT of you out of the scene without really adding anything interesting to it. So it goes.
I told my class that this morning by the way. “The Argh People object to the Manolos, so they go.” You’re famous.
On October 24, 2009 at 3:22 pm Marta said...
Yeah, we’re an ‘in’ group, all right. (“Humor. Har.” Or, as we say around here, “Ack, Ack, Ack.”)
On October 24, 2009 at 1:09 pm doris in munich said...
I always thought your male POV perfect, perhaps that’s why Bob taking over the male protagonist didn’t jar with me: they were manly before, too.
I also thought the blowjob-idea terrific: even men like North (or e.g. my dear husband ) would have this idea stick like a earworm-tune especially when their workload is that high…
About men being chatty or not: North and Southie did talk more than most men in previous books (minus the Bob-and-Jenny-books), but who knows? If he keeps on like his chatty-self he is right now, my dear son will be a true Southerner (or so I deduct from the above remarks), well, a Southern German that is, but Southerner and talking with almost no pause to breathe no less
On October 24, 2009 at 1:45 pm tenni41 said...
Men talk – just not about feelings – unless under extreme duress. Which I shall leave to your imagination as well.
On October 24, 2009 at 2:11 pm jessie said...
Thanks for getting rid of the Manolos. I didn’t get caught up in the “would a guy know the designer debate” but it did throw me out of the scene because I found myself thinking “surely there is someone else that the fashionistas are getting their shoes from. Writers have been using Manolo for 10 years or more as a sort of short-hand for what kind of character the woman has, i.e., the kind that buys very expensive shoes that everyone knows. Shouldn’t she be wearing something a little more exclusive?” Which is also why it didn’t bother me that a guy would know the name of the shoe because I figured this was just character setting to prepare us for her.
And I am not sure about naming the detective Gabe either for the same reason. For people not familiar with your writing, it won’t make any difference. For those of us who are, we will be obsessing about FW and AKMG. It interupts the story line.
On October 24, 2009 at 2:37 pm Melissa Blue said...
When an author name drops a character from one of their other books I always think it’s a shout-out. Never felt it interrupted the storyline.
On October 24, 2009 at 2:44 pm RfP said...
I don’t believe that all men’s conversation is different from women’s conversation. Men come in varieties. North’s variety includes being a lawyer, so he probably has verbal skills and argument skills. He may not be a “people person”, but he still has the skills and the years of training. If he’s also the type who doesn’t like to lose an argument or let someone else get the last word in, then voila: a man of manymanymany words.
On October 24, 2009 at 3:58 pm Pat Rice said...
I never have time for reading blogs until the weekend so I’m late to the discussion. FWIW…I have lots of experience with male conversation. They talk. They may argue and get loud. They may attempt to one-up each other (competition is as big as swear words and shouting). But if they’re hitting around emotional landmines, then they’re going to get physical. Emotion fuzzies their brains, so they need focus, and physical action gives them that. Slam a basketball, build a popsicle stick house, do anything to avoid looking like they’re actually having that conversation.
Enjoy NJ!
On October 24, 2009 at 5:58 pm Jenny said...
I put Gabe in there as a throwaway line because I thought it might increase the sense of the community in Columbus, extend the world of the story. Or not, as it turns out. So there’s a poll to the right if you want to weigh in on the questions.
On October 24, 2009 at 8:02 pm SueG said...
North & Southie are having a normal conversation…why is it that women think men don’t talk? They do, some more than others, but that is the same with women. Brothers, especially will have conversations that are about more than sports, cars, & weather. There may have been a reason men were the “strong, silent type”; men were reared with the belief that they shouldn’t show their emotions, cry, or discuss what was bothering them. It’s the 21st century and I think some progress has been made in that area. I have a husband, 2 sons, & male friends and they talk. Now not all of them are chatty in the extreme, but their personality types would make them “strong, silent” females too. Cal, Tony & Roger from Bet Me discuss happenings in their lives, people in their lives and try to protect each other from hurts. Men may do it on a different level, but the emotions are still there. Jenny you may hate writing the male POV, but you’re great at it.
I like the dynamic between North and Sullivan; the comments earlier about family perception is spot on. Southie as a sister. No Way, it would change everything, and in my opinion, not what you are going for.
Love the inclusion of Gabe.
On October 24, 2009 at 8:34 pm Jenny said...
I don’t think it’s so much that they wouldn’t talk as it is that they wouldn’t chat about the relationship. Of course, three of my last five novels have been with Bob, and his heroes do not chat unless they think it’s going to get them something. And even then . . . not good chatters. So he may have skewed my view.
On October 25, 2009 at 7:03 am toni said...
/bossy hat on and at the risk of annoying the living hell out of you…
I don’t know where you’re getting the idea that you don’t write strong men (Phin in WTT, strong, smart, very male, Davy, etc, etc.), or write them well.
You would not lump all women into a single category. You wouldn’t say, “All women love to chat about feelings.” Some do, some don’t. Some know what fancy shoes are, some couldn’t care less. Some love cocktail parties, for example. I view them as graphic torture. Small talk makes me nuts. I can fake it for about ten minutes, then I’m looking for the door. Other women? Seem to love parties and dressing up and making small talk. (I’d really rather be shot.)
Same with men. Same with men chatting. Generalizations are stifling, and most of the time, wrong. (Irony. Yes, I see it.) It matters if *North* and *Southie* do something or not, and only you know what that is that’s true to them. I know Bob’s men were a type, but that doesn’t mean that type is universal or absolutely required for a male to be masculine. I know a lot of hot, sexy smart men who will talk, in detail, about their feelings. And I don’t think you can get any more alpha than some of them, so just because Bob’s men don’t talk about feelings doesn’t mean other men won’t.
Last week, a construction worker I know visited a former Spec Ops soldier and while football was in the background, they talked about one’s relationship to his wife and how it was disintegrating, how he felt about it, and what he could do. I think it was in between yelling for the first down play, but still. Feelings. Actionable options, choices, possible ramifications.
There are just as many different kinds of men, with different levels of what they would and wouldn’t say/do/think about as there are women.
Do it your way. That’s why we read you (religiously), dammit.
/bossy hat off now
On October 26, 2009 at 8:22 pm kate said...
I agree completely–yours are some of the more believable men in romance. Really. I’d agree with you if they were poorly written.
On October 25, 2009 at 5:12 pm Savvy2 said...
I have two sons, the older one married, the younger one divorced for over six years. They have long personal discussions and would feel right at home reading this.
With the Blahnick reference gone (and it didn’t much bother me), I enjoy this scene like it is. If the book is too long and you need to tighten it, okay, but I really like it now.
I noticed one tiny typing error: the/they’re in:
“I thought I might drop in, check on things for you, see how the they’re doing.” Things like that jump out at me because I edit for someone else.
Good scene!
“I thought I might drop in, check on things for you, see how the they’re doing.”
On October 25, 2009 at 5:13 pm Savvy2 said...
Sorry. I must’ve hit paste twice!
On October 25, 2009 at 7:02 pm Hannah Dymond said...
I really enjoyed this scene and felt the dialogue provided heaps of the background info needed. I have to say though that the mention of blow jobs in the first section and then again in this chapter doesn’t fit the tone for me. Will they be part of the actual sex scenes later on? I’ve only read a few Crusie novels so am not sure how explicit she gets (enjoyed what I’ve read so far!!) If they don’t appear later, then why mention them at all?
On October 25, 2009 at 9:29 pm Kelly said...
btw, I don’t think your books improved by adding Bob. Although, I do love Agnes!
On October 26, 2009 at 12:30 am Thea said...
Given what you show of Southie, he’d chat about this relationship. He likes Andie, likes North being with Andie. And he’s Southie. He’d chat.
On October 26, 2009 at 12:36 am Thea said...
Another thing — Southie’s not chatting about Andie. He’s not chatting at all. He has an agenda, that gets handled. Then he talks about North, talks about Andie, talks about Andie and North.
You’re right, most men don’t chat. Known some who do, given the situation. But what Southie is doing in this scene isn’t chatting, and North is too busy handling to chat.
On October 26, 2009 at 8:45 am Kit DeClaire said...
I’m a beginning writer and I have the same problem.Especially since I have little experience in the field of…er…romance. Its hard to write a great sex scene when you’re a virgin.
On October 26, 2009 at 10:43 am Patricia Rice said...
That’s it exactly! Most men don’t chat aimlessly, they chat with a goal in mind. They’re inherently problem-solvers. North thinks he’s solved the problem with the children but now he’s worrying if he hasn’t opened up more problems, and Southie is essentially confirming that he has. (and I agree with Toni, you couldn’t write a bad character if someone held a gun to your head)
Solving someone else’s dilemma is so much more fun than tackling my own pages…
On October 26, 2009 at 7:14 pm Sharon said...
I, too, am still having problems with the 10 year span-that’s 120 envelopes in her purse !!. With his methodical mind I feel that he would have “checked her off his list” as a problem or a concern a long time ago. Ten years is too long for a man of his mind-set to carry a torch. Now her, being a romantic, I can see hoping to be back into his life. Some one “up the line” suggested 5 years which does sound better but I would even go for 3 years of lost time between them.Then we also have to ask ourselves how or if she knew these children that she has been hired to help. Finally, I like the dialog between the brothers-South just wants to help his older brother-take some of the work away, the worry away and see him happy-but North wants to be the head of the family, the leader and the one who is always RIGHT even if it hurts him.
On October 27, 2009 at 12:58 am SueG said...
I guess my use of “chatty in the extreme”, turned men talking into chatting. I did not mean, aimless chatting about relationships. My point was not all men are silent and not all women are talkers; there are differences in the WAY men and women DO talk, but the conversations take place. I think North and Southie were having a normal conversation. I’m sure Southie has an agenda; Jenny wouldn’t have written that section that way without him having one. I don’t agree that North WANTS to be the head of the family; I think he has done it for so long, he doesn’t know how NOT to be the head of the family.
I don’t know if I’ve made my point any clearer, but now you know why I read instead of write
)
On October 27, 2009 at 4:31 am junebug_indeed said...
Overall I really liked the scence. Ditto for me about the shoes. I was also a little confused about the fact that North’s mom helps run the practice. In the earlier scene with Andie it sounded like North carried the weight of the family on his shoulders. Now I’m not so sure. I also agree with some of the other comments that suggest having Southie rib his brother more about the Andie aspect of his ghost trip. Maybe make Suze less of a girlfriend and more of a hookup he’s trying to extend.
And after saying all that I would like to assure you that in the long run if I hadn’t read your blog I probably wouldn’t have noticed anything. My academic reading is the only thing I seriously analyze. I read your books solely for my own personal enjoyment.
On October 27, 2009 at 11:34 am Marta said...
It occurs to me we may be talking about two different concepts in our men-don’t-chat debate, especially as regards relationships. I think it matters to whom they’re speaking. Men don’t chat to WOMEN about relationships. They talk to each other plenty. Back in my Air Force days, I was the only woman in big group of men. If you’re defining ‘chat’ as casual conversation, believe me, they chat, and chat, and chat, even about relationships. They also discuss relationships more seriously amongst themselves.
On October 27, 2009 at 12:48 pm Katie Redhead said...
Jenny, I’m late and we may have moved on from here, but I have to say: That woman was built for distance… call me dirty, but that sounds like something my brothers wouldn’t be saying about our mother, but about a girl they had a good time with. I wonder if you’re re-working the Manolow reference anyway, you might want to think about if a man would say that about his mother in quite that way?
On October 27, 2009 at 12:51 pm Katie Redhead said...
My brothers would be more likely to say something along the lines of, “well enough to drive me nuts the whole time. The woman talks more than my ears can listen”
On October 28, 2009 at 8:38 pm SnarkMaiden said...
10 years: I totally buy that. North has been ignoring the fact that there was anything to think about breaking up with Andy beyond ‘it’s logical’ as hard as he can for ten whole years. Unless something smacked him in the face like this he’d ignore it another 10 years, another 20 years, another 30 years. He drew a neat line under it. Doesn’t mean he dealt with it or finished it or moved on from it. Infuriating man! (=typical excellent Crusie protagonist)
that woman was built for distance: that made me laugh out loud, and didn’t feel in the slightest bit suggestive.
Gabe: please keep Gabe. Hell, have them catch Charlie on the radio or use Nick as their lawyer. That one line in What the lady wnats where Nick and Tess are at the party was a glorious thing because of the sense of recognition, the tiny puzzle. Reward your regulars!
male POV: I have no idea whether these male characters sound like ‘real men’ talking to each other – though I certainly think they do. I’m afraid I don’t actually care
I like to read real male Crusie characters talking to each other. I like to hear Nick and Park or Gabe and Nick and Max talking.