You Knew This Was Coming
Apr22009
Jen needs a tagline for Wild Ride.
I have some, but let’s face it, you people excel at this.
Here’s mine so far:
Welcome to Dreamland. The roller coaster isn’t the only thing that makes people scream.
The wildest ride at Dreamland isn’t the roller coaster.
Lots of women think they’ve fall in love with a demon. Mab Brannigan really has.
And of course the classic:
Argh People, start your engines.
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70 Comments to 'You Knew This Was Coming'
On April 2, 2009 at 7:34 pm hollygee said...
Welcome to Dreamland. Rollercoasters, Whirl-A-World, and Ferris Wheels. Instead of sweet dreams, a demon lover has given Mabs Brannigan sweet screams.
On April 2, 2009 at 7:57 pm JulieB said...
Oh God. My lawyer genes just kicked in and I can’t think. My brain is screaming “Pedophile!”
On April 2, 2009 at 7:58 pm JulieB said...
Oooh. I like sweet screams though…
On April 2, 2009 at 7:59 pm JulieB said...
However, I’m thinking this _really_ isn’t the target audience. I read this as urban fiction, not horror. ‘Cause I knew you’d really appreciate the pigeonholing on that!
It’s just the picture. Take it down please!
On April 2, 2009 at 9:31 pm liz said...
I can’t think with the clown staring at me! Creepy!
On April 2, 2009 at 10:04 pm Jenny said...
Wimps. And she’s in her twenties, look at her face. Not to mention the bustline. It’s the headband that’s throwing you off.
And it’s not really horror–that clown is creeping you out more than monkey, isn’t it–but I’m not sure what it is.
Here, try this:
When Mary Alice Brannigan comes home to Ohio to restore the Dreamland amusement park, she doesn’t expect to fall in love. Nor does she expect to find that she’s the newest recruit in the Guardia, an elite team of demon fighters formed centuries before to guard the five Untouchables, the most powerful demons in the history of the world, now imprisoned right there in Dreamland. That would be bad enough, but there’s that guy she’s falling hard for, and there’s something about him that’s not quite right . . .
Then there’s Ethan Wayne, a former Green Beret who’s come home to Dreamland to die. Ethan has his own problems including a bullet in his chest inching closer to his heart and a mother who drags him into the Guardia after he’s possessed by a crazed killer mermaid demon. Between ducking his mother’s attempts to reform him and dodging the bullets of a woman he’s pretty sure is his soulmate, Ethan really doesn’t have time for demons, touchable or not.
But rocky romances and demented demons aren’t Mab and Ethan’s only problems: they’re also coping with a crooked politician, a supernatural raven, a secret government agency, an inexperienced sorceress, a betrayer within the Guardia, and some mind-boggling revelations from their own pasts. As their personal demons wreck their newfound relationships and real demons wreck the park, Mab and Ethan find out that the Untouchables have escaped and opened the gate to hell on earth. Now they’re facing down the Devil himself and finding out what everybody who’s ever been to an amusement park knows: the end of the ride is the wildest.
On April 2, 2009 at 10:23 pm Ericka said...
first monkeys, now clowns… why, why do you hate me? just slap a clown suit on a monkey and watch me twitch, why don’t you???
tagline: dreamland, where the demons totally creep out the clowns, and then it really gets interesting.
On April 2, 2009 at 10:25 pm CC said...
A reluctant demon fighter, a former Green Beret, and a crooked politician- it’s just another night at Dreamland, where we specialize in sweet screams and wild rides
although the last part could stand alone- let’s consider this two options
JulieB- I liked your sweet screams- I don’t like to think of it as stealing, more like maximizing my resources
On April 2, 2009 at 10:34 pm purplelev said...
I like “sweet screams and wild rides”
On April 2, 2009 at 11:18 pm robena grant said...
Demonic demons. Dark powers. Daring dreams. Feel the rush of the roller coaster ride of your life in WILD RIDE.
On April 2, 2009 at 11:31 pm Lois said...
Dreamland, where demons do live!
On April 2, 2009 at 11:50 pm Louise said...
You said it right there:
‘the end of the ride is the wildest’. But you could prefix it with:
when all the demons are out every ride is wild and ‘the end of the ride is the wildest’
I am so looking forward to this book.
On April 3, 2009 at 12:17 am CrankyOtter said...
Dreamland, not just for good dreams.
Dreamland: Be careful what you wish for
Wild Ride, not your mother’s rollercoaster/themepark
Dreamland: Where there’s never too much FunFun.
Or make it a fortune:
You are in for a Wild Ride [in bed]
The answers are in Dreamland but beware the clown.
A Wild Ride is in store for you
or, you know, something compelling.
On April 3, 2009 at 12:28 am Vicki said...
Jenny -
#6 sounds terrific to me but that’s the problem. I still want the book it sounds like, and to me this screams Mary/Ethan romance. Dunno how you get around that but I think you at least need to dump every referance to falling in love or romance.
I’ll enjoy Wild Ride but I already know going in that it’s not a romance.
Reader expectations are going to be a bitch on this book.
On April 3, 2009 at 2:08 am YvonneL said...
Dreamland: where the boogey man lives
On April 3, 2009 at 7:13 am Natalie said...
Dreamland, where the demon driving the rollercoaster is real. [even though I don't know if that actually happens]
Dreamland. Where else could a posse of demon clowns hide in plain sight.
Demon lovers sound good … until the shooting begins.
Demon lovers sound like FunFun, but they really are out to get you.
On April 3, 2009 at 7:58 am Cathy said...
Clowns and fake monkeys are both creepy. Now your clown picture is just ewwwy….it looks like FunFun is about to give her some lame line about his pipes.
Clowns, coasters, gates of hell. Dreamland: It has it all.
The screams are real in Dreamland.
On April 3, 2009 at 8:24 am JulieB said...
OK, she may be 18 or older, but still. Ick.
@ CC — The “Sweet screams” phrase was HollyGee’s. I think it’s brilliant.
And I also agree with Louise, “the end of the ride is the wildest” has to be used.
I do have to say, however, I’m afraid a reader picking it up after reading that blurb might expect a romance between Ethan and Mab. Since each character is mentioned with a lover or potential soul-mate.
I don’t know if this would be as problematic, but I definately get more of a set up for romance reading this than I did in the scene you posted for opinions.
On April 3, 2009 at 8:42 am jenifer said...
Step right up for a wild ride as Mab and Ethan battle the demons within. And the demons without.
Welcome to Dreamland, where inner demons, outer demons, and hell on Earth are just part of the ride. Sweet screams.
On April 3, 2009 at 8:55 am McB said...
Demons are loose in Dreamland.
Demons are loose in the amusement park. Now *that’s* a Wild Ride.
It’s gonna be a Wild Ride, if they can survive.
In Dreamland there are nighmares.
On April 3, 2009 at 9:14 am Danielle said...
That’s not a headband ladies – those are sunglasses, its the pig tails that are throwing me off.
On April 3, 2009 at 9:21 am GatorPerson said...
Rocky romances, demented demons, a crooked politician, a supernatural raven, a secret government agency, an inexperienced sorceress. What more could you ask for?
(Yes, I know how to cut and paste. Why start from scratch when the Goddess of Words is so much better?)
On April 3, 2009 at 9:52 am me said...
Demonic clowns…for when true love isn’t scary enough. (yeah I know, it’s not a romance…)
Demonic clowns. Possessed mermaids. The end of the world. Family reunions. Pick your poison.
Demonic clowns. Possessed mermaids. Hell’s gate. Family reunions. The end of the world begins in Dreamland.
Soul suckers. Soul mates. What’s the difference?
On April 3, 2009 at 10:21 am JanLo said...
Dreamland, where no one will sleep for long. Sweet screams. (love the sweet screams)
Everyone is… different, behind the masks. Sweet screams.
Dreamland, closer to a nightmare. Sweet screams.
Demons, fighters, protectors, traitors… no sweet dreams in Dreamland.
On April 3, 2009 at 10:36 am Jenny said...
And I thought Agnes was tough to blurb.
I was hesitant to use the Mab falling for a demon tagline because it gives away a major plot point, but I did figure that would rule Ethan out as a love interest, but I think expectation is just too strong. I even had one beta who read a scene with a fortuneteller who is never wrong and who tells Mab that Ethan is definitely NOT her love interest, and the beta still thought Ethan was going to be the hero.
So I don’t know. Short of having Ethan wear a T-shirt that says, “I don’t fall in love with repressed redheads” . . . nah, that wouldn’t do it, either.
Amazing, the strength of genre and expectation.
On April 3, 2009 at 10:53 am Jackie said...
Well, Jenny, it’s good thing you don’t write taglines for a living. Just as well we like your novels so much. Cherries to the rescue…
Dreamland isn’t so far away, and terrifyingly real as a child’s nightmares.
Ok, the blurb is a problem… It raises expectations because of romance standards for blurbs….
a man and a woman as protags … they’ll get together right?
Mab NOT looking for love….so of course she’s going to find it….
Ethan’s part of the blurb helps, but often either or both lovers start out with another love interest to make the match more impossible….
OK, you KNOW all this, it’s not as if you guys haven’t read a rommance bofore…. I’m just saying….
So maybe we should be looking closer at some UF and thriller blurbs. And it seems to be rather long and give a lot away. I hope that means there’s even more great surprises.
On April 3, 2009 at 11:56 am Carla said...
Dreamland, home of the Wildest Ride ever.
It’s Friday and my job ate my brain. I’ll think of a better one later.
On April 3, 2009 at 12:00 pm Wag said...
Amazing, the strength of genre and expectation.
Jenny,
I think the bigger expectation is that Jennifer Crusie writes romance. That’s the expectation you have to change and short of changing your penname I’m not sure how you’re going to accomplish it.
Yeah, I’m probably in the minority on your blog and I love the fact that you’re branching out but if I hadn’t come to your blog, I’d have no clue. So in my mind, the question isn’t simply one of changing the blurb or writing a great tag line, it’s how do you change the expectations of people who love Jennifer Crusie’s romances and pick up the book simply because Jennifer Crusie is splashed on the cover? Those are the people whose expectations have to be changed.
But then I’d have to add, haven’t some of those expectations already been changed? I didn’t read Don’t Look Down but I did read Agnes, and although I enjoyed Anges very much, I don’t think of Anges as a Jennifer Crusie romance. Yes, there’s a romance between the pages but it’s not the first genre that pops into my head.
It’s more like a zany romantic comedy mystery caper with romance not being the main plot.
So in my mind the question is how do you use the base you’ve already started to build to further reset expectations on what Jennifer Crusie writes.
I mean we already know that if Jennifer Crusie & Bob Mayer are on the cover together that we shouldn’t expect a Jennifer Crusie romance. How do you take the next step and say this next one’s not a romance at all?
And for the record before anyone takes me to task, I think Jenny is a master storyteller, I’m just trying to provide a different viewpoint and hoping that I’m articulating it well.
On April 3, 2009 at 12:48 pm Kyrathered said...
How about “Come to Dreamland, where nothing is as it seems.”
An homage to Alice in Wonderland and a warning to expect the unexpected. Which would be the first clue the hero and heroine are not going to hook up.
Seems lame compared to everyone elses tho. I really like sweet screams.
On April 3, 2009 at 12:58 pm Susan D said...
The blurb says romance to me because you’ve named a man and a woman and made it clear there’s an Other for Each, and it sure sounds like they are Each’s Other. Unless you name Ethan and Mab’s respective Others, it’s feeling pretty romantic.
(Love the clown poster.)
On April 3, 2009 at 1:40 pm Erika said...
I don’t think of Anges as a Jennifer Crusie romance. Yes, there’s a romance between the pages but it’s not the first genre that pops into my head.
I wasn’t going to comment because I don’t have a great tagline, but I feel the need to slightly disagree with this comment. I am a huge Jennifer Crusie fan and even with Bob Mayer’s name on the cover I still expect a romance. Agnes and The Hitman is one of my favorite Jennifer Crusie romances so I must disagree. The “romantic mystery caper” still has romance at the front of your description. If I hadn’t stopped by today I would never know that Wild Ride isn’t a romance and would expect it to be when I picked it up. Sorry, but you expect certain things from certain authors. It may not be fair and it may not be what authors want, but as readers it’s how we recognize what we know we like. The author’s name.
On April 3, 2009 at 1:44 pm JulieB said...
I love Jenifer’s “Welcome to Dreamland, where inner demons, outer demons, and hell on Earth are just part of the ride. Sweet screams.”
and Me’s second suggestion, except I’d shorten it to “Demonic clowns. Possessed mermaids. The end of the world. Pick your poison.”
I think the “Family reunions” is one point too long.
And, to follow up on Wag’s observation, I do love that you’re branching out. But I think even readers familiar with DLD and AATHM will remember that the protagonists end up together. At least, I saw an implied together in DLD.
They definately have a relationship that arcs.
But I agree with Jackie. I think the blurb and the cover art are going to really need to mimic an UF style much more than ever.
On April 3, 2009 at 2:02 pm McB said...
Some of the people will have expectations all of the time, and all of the people will have expectation some of the time, but most of us will get over it and enjoy a good read.
Clowns, demons and possessed ravens: Welcome to Dreamland.
On April 3, 2009 at 2:19 pm Cat said...
I completely agree with WAG. I think that a good storyteller, such as Jenny Crusie, gives the reader a great experience start to finish. If the story is told right then expectation morphs during the reading of the story. It’s a journey we go on willingly and happily.
I really love the “sweet screams” bit, it kinda reminds of me the Eurythmics’ “Sweet Dreams”. “Sweet screams are made of this.” Of course I’m not sure about the legalities
One of my thoughts, before reading through everything, was…
“Your demons ain’t got nothing on theirs.”
That’s what I got so far.
On April 3, 2009 at 2:56 pm JulieB said...
Just for giggles, what would happen if you started the blurb with Ethan, then moved to Mab?
On April 3, 2009 at 3:03 pm CrankyOtter said...
Wanted to chime back in with support for “sweet screams”. It really works for me. As does “sweet screams are made of this” and the “pick your poison” lines.
FWIW, I think the clown poster is awesome, but the demented monkey creeps me out. Teeth are too skeletal or something. I’m just going to go think about free love bonobos instead.
Not that it’s better than sweet screams, but in the spirit of brainstorming, “your demons ain’t got nothin’ on the heirs”.
Oh, and the blurb, I caught to bit in the third paragraph that pluralizes relationship_s_ for Mab and Ethan but I might not have if I didn’t read the blog. You do have a challenge setting up the M/F protags and not having it sound like they’re getting together.
On April 3, 2009 at 3:33 pm Vicki said...
Well. The falling for a demon part? Not necessarily a deal breaker.
I read a lot of urban fantasy and I own a Buffy/Spike t-shirt. I adore Jeaniene Frost’s books and she pretty much filed off the serial numbers to write Buffy/Spike fanfic for Avon.
Unless you put in the blurb that he (Joe?) is the eats-babies-for-breakfast kind of demon, coming into this cold I’d still expect her to end up with Ethan or (less possible but still possible) the demon.
The HEA reader’s deal breaker isn’t going to be with who she boinks along the way, it’s going to be that she rides off into the sunset by herself.
On April 3, 2009 at 3:36 pm Mary Stella said...
When your sweet dreams battle your worst nightmares, you’re in for one Wild Ride.
Dreamland – Where your worst nightmares and wildest dreams come alive!
Heroes, Demons and Clowns that go bump in the night.
Jenny, sorry, but the blurb puts the expectation back on a Mab/Ethan romance — even though you mentione plural romances in the last paragraph. I think it’s an easy fix, however. I tried a few suggestions, non-italicized:
But rocky romances and demented demons aren’t Mab and Ethan’s only problems: they’re also coping with a crooked politician, a supernatural raven, a secret government agency, an inexperienced sorceress, a betrayer within the Guardia, and some mind-boggling revelations from their own pasts. As their personal demons wreck their newfound relationships and real demons wreck the park, Mab and Ethan find out that the Untouchables have escaped and opened the gate to hell on earth. Now they’re working together to face down the Devil himself, save the loves of their lives, and finding out what everybody who’s ever been to an amusement park knows: the end of the ride is the wildest.
(Typing after wrist surgery and percocet. Will try to do better later.)
On April 3, 2009 at 5:36 pm colognegrrl said...
Welcome to Dreamland – the amusement park from hell.
The roller coaster towards your worst nightmare.
Be careful. It’s the devil’s playground.
I scream. You scream. And all hell breaks loose.
Hot Dogs. Ice cream. And a Scary-Go-Round.
On April 3, 2009 at 5:37 pm Meggrs said...
De-lurking to say that Louise said it well– you’ve got a solid one-sentence tag in: “Welcome to Dreamland, where the end of the ride is the wildest.”
Or, for extra-short and pithy: “Dreamland: The end of the ride is the wildest.”
On April 3, 2009 at 6:05 pm robena grant said...
You’re in for the ride of your life when otherworldly desires clash with worldly passions.
Dreamland Amusement Park, where the amusement goes missing.
Welcome to Dreamland Amusement Park: you can enter but may never leave.
Dreamland: a park possessed by demons, passions, and perilous rides.
Dreamland: where restoration releases demons trapped for centuries: dark, passionate, tantalizing.
Wild Ride is a fast paced journey into the otherworld. And back. Maybe.
On April 3, 2009 at 6:55 pm Kyrathered said...
I realy like one of Colognegrrl’s … changed it a bit.
You scream. I scream. We all scream. No icecream.
Hmmm … looked better in my head. I’m not good at this.
On April 3, 2009 at 7:24 pm Jenny said...
Ooooh, CG. Devil’s playground. Hmmm.
And yes, my editor agrees that the blurb moves us back to a Mab/Ethan romance expectations so we’re still tweaking. The good news is, we have lots of time for blurb and tweak because the book won’t be out until the beginning of 2010. Somewhere around January to April.
Sweet screams, catchy as it is, is romance again.
You know there are romances in here. They’re just not between Ethan and Mab. Which seemed like such a good idea at the time.
On April 3, 2009 at 7:31 pm K.L. said...
Dreamland has become a nightmare. You’ll have sweet screams tonight.
On April 3, 2009 at 7:33 pm Shaolin said...
I don’t care much about the tagline. The art is more important to me.
But know this: (fill in noun here) _from_hell_ is the mother of all cliches and would result in my putting the book back on the shelf immediately. Do better, please.
On April 3, 2009 at 7:35 pm K.L. said...
This place has really gone to the Devil.
On April 3, 2009 at 9:45 pm JulieB said...
You know there are romances in here. They’re just not between Ethan and Mab. Which seemed like such a good idea at the time.
It’ll be fine. It’s just like ripping off the bandaid. Once this one’s out, the chains of expectations will be cast off!
Or something like that.
On April 3, 2009 at 10:11 pm Marta said...
When Dreamland becomes Screamland, even the rides turn feral.
When Dreamland becomes Screamland, nothing in the park is amused.
On April 3, 2009 at 10:27 pm Theora_Jones said...
I hear this in a little girl’s sing-song, (and I really wish I didn’t):
cotton candy, carousel,
tonight we ride the road to Hell;
darkest forces called to hand,
evil’s come to see Dreamland
On April 4, 2009 at 12:09 am Jenny said...
Actually, I think this is a place where the “from hell” bit works really well because it’s not just a metaphor. This really is the conflict from (Etruscan) hell, the lover from hell, etc.
I used it twice in the book, but only once in that construction. One place was one character yelling at another about adopting a demon, saying, “It’s not a puppy, it didn’t follow you home from hell,” and the other place is a character talking about “the family from hell” which is a reference to a family that has literally come from hell.
I think Richard Lewis was the guy who coined that usage. I still like it.
On April 4, 2009 at 6:27 am Courtney De said...
The good news is, we have lots of time for blurb and tweak because the book won’t be out until the beginning of 2010. Somewhere around January to April.
This definition of “good news” you’re using seems to be faulty. It’s not working for me. (Sigh.)
See, I like my romances, and my mysteries, and my thrillers, and my capers, but, my favorites are the books that are just plain good. Haven’t let me down yet, don’t see it happening now. So, bring on your demons from hell, non-romance with romances and rollercoasters. I’m in.
On April 4, 2009 at 10:21 am Sure thing said...
Hi
blurb needs tweaking – no doubt there. it alalso seems a bit spoiler-ish (to me).
also liking “the devil’s playground” – if playground is not specific enough to this story, try merry-go-round or fun fair.
bye.
-in a lower case mood today-
On April 4, 2009 at 12:33 pm colognegrrl said...
Well, as you know, Idol bands are the devil’s playground. Or something like that.
To be honest, I remember this from “Strange Bedpersons”. There was a sampler with this eternal wisdom over the bed.
On April 4, 2009 at 2:15 pm Jackie said...
WArning: This is not a Romance! It’s the devil’s playground.
On April 4, 2009 at 10:07 pm Natalie Hart said...
Where even the devil comes to play, but fights to win.
On April 4, 2009 at 11:33 pm Erica - Aussie CB said...
Dreamland: It’s a scream
or
Wild Ride: It’s a scream
Dreamland: where demons roam free
In Dreamland, all Hell has broken loose…
Hell hath no fury like a 10 foot clown – (insert actual hight of Dreamland clown)
One Hell of a ride.
Roller-coaster ride to hell
or
Roller-coaster ride to hell and back
Clowns, guns and the Devil. One hell of a mix.
Dreamland: Hell on Earth.
Wild Ride: Hell is on the rise.
Wild Ride: Where clowns are demons and Hell is more than a state of mind.
or
Wild Ride: Where the clowns are possessed and Hell is more than a state of mind.
On April 5, 2009 at 9:12 am Elyssa Papa said...
Dreamland . . . where the fun really begins after-hours. Will you be able to survive the wild ride?
On April 5, 2009 at 1:59 pm Sarah said...
Dreamland: Scream a little scream for me.
On April 6, 2009 at 12:28 am Sheri said...
Ok, Theora–you have totally creeped me out! *shudder* And I am lousy at these things so I am not going to try right now. But, yeah, love the little song even though it is totally spooky!
On April 6, 2009 at 3:25 pm helen said...
Welcome to Dreamland — where demons park it when they’re not amused.
On April 6, 2009 at 3:31 pm Kira said...
Sweet Dreams was the name of a teen romance series, wasn’t it? Sweet Screams won’t work.
What about a play on “from hell” – “Snarky and smug – the team from hell battles demons from hell”
On April 6, 2009 at 7:03 pm patmcaudel said...
dreamland, be careful who you clown around with…
dreamland, in your wildest dreams…well, it is your wildest dreams
dreamland, who knew
dreamland, it’s not the playland it used to be
welcome to dreamland, get ready for the wildest ride for your life, of your life, we meant of your life…truly…
dreamland where wild rides carry you away to hell and back…if you are luck
On April 7, 2009 at 3:10 am Anette said...
Perhaps something about seperate rides?
The man, who’d die for a dream, and the woman, who’s dreams make her scream. Separete rides to Hell. WILD RIDES!
On April 7, 2009 at 8:03 am Marta said...
Step right up and see what happens when a slightly scornful woman finds out how much fury hell really has.
On April 7, 2009 at 9:44 am Marta said...
What about Mab and Ethan having separate tag lines, like the different covers on DLD? Might suggest a little more distance between them, destiny wise.
A decade or so in Special Forces had taught Ethan that the devil might live in the details but he vacationed in places like Afghanistan and Iraq. Intel was a little thin as to which playground was the devil’s favorite. At least, it was until Ethan came home to Dreamland . . .
On April 9, 2009 at 3:42 am Reb said...
* Dreamland: where nightmares ride
or walk, or something else.
* Wild ride: when evil wakes within
Or maybe some kind of play on some kind of circus welcome thing:
* Roll up to the doors of hell.
Good thing I don’t do this for a living!
On April 9, 2009 at 9:57 am Melissa Blue said...
Am I the only one who likes the examples:
“Welcome to Dreamland. The roller coaster isn’t the only thing that makes people scream.”
AND
“Evil clowns need love too.”
On April 9, 2009 at 11:39 am MJ said...
She set out to save an amusement park. Now they want her to save the world.
A thrilling tale of demons, sorcery and snark
Demonic mermaids, deadly clowns and the Devil himself. And the roller coaster? Don’t even ask.
On April 9, 2009 at 4:45 pm Katie M said...
Had I not visited this blog I would have assumed Wild Rides is a romance. I can’t stress enough how important it is to have a blurb that makes clear that Ethan and Mab aren’t getting together.
The power of reader expectations should never be underestimated. Just look at what Suzanne Brockmann and Lori Foster just went through with Dark of Night and My Man Michael, respectively. Not fun.
On July 17, 2009 at 7:01 am Jessica Week said...
Boy…that is tricky. I write back cover copy sometimes, but I usually run through the whole piece first. Let me think on this one…I do like the triplet by Robena. Triplets are fun and the alliteration is nice:
Demonic demons. Dark powers. Daring dreams.
I like something about Mab defying her past to follow her dream, Ethan running from his past to quiet his dreams…hmmmm, let my brain play a little.