Comments on: Shar 8: 59,000 Words http://www.arghink.com/2007/12/19/shar-8-59000-words/ More than you ever wanted to hear from Bestselling Author Jenny Crusie. Fri, 10 Feb 2012 07:42:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.4 By: colognegrrl http://www.arghink.com/2007/12/19/shar-8-59000-words/#comment-17113 colognegrrl Thu, 20 Dec 2007 23:18:22 +0000 http://www.arghink.com/2007/12/19/shar-8-59000-words/#comment-17113 AgTigress, thanks so much. I'll work through all this and see what I need ('language varieties in Britain' is a compulsory topic at our school and I don't really know yet what I'll do with it). I had been thinking of buying "Watching the English" anyway, so I'll do it now. And I'll visit the dictionary.com forum, of course, and see what that is about. (The Partridge we have in the school library is about 30 years old.) AgTigress, thanks so much. I’ll work through all this and see what I need (‘language varieties in Britain’ is a compulsory topic at our school and I don’t really know yet what I’ll do with it). I had been thinking of buying “Watching the English” anyway, so I’ll do it now.

And I’ll visit the dictionary.com forum, of course, and see what that is about. (The Partridge we have in the school library is about 30 years old.)

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]]> By: Jennifer http://www.arghink.com/2007/12/19/shar-8-59000-words/#comment-17099 Jennifer Thu, 20 Dec 2007 19:25:20 +0000 http://www.arghink.com/2007/12/19/shar-8-59000-words/#comment-17099 jessie, I wouldn't call butter & honey bland~I once had an offer to have it rubbed all over me! How about if she used lavender infused honey? Just a thought. jessie, I wouldn’t call butter & honey bland~I once had an offer to have it rubbed all over me!

How about if she used lavender infused honey? Just a thought.

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]]> By: AgTigress http://www.arghink.com/2007/12/19/shar-8-59000-words/#comment-17098 AgTigress Thu, 20 Dec 2007 18:56:45 +0000 http://www.arghink.com/2007/12/19/shar-8-59000-words/#comment-17098 And another thing: there is now a new edition (which I don't have yet) of Eric Partridge's classic <i>Dictionary of Slang and Unconventional English</i>. And another thing: there is now a new edition (which I don’t have yet) of Eric Partridge’s classic Dictionary of Slang and Unconventional English.

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]]> By: AgTigress http://www.arghink.com/2007/12/19/shar-8-59000-words/#comment-17093 AgTigress Thu, 20 Dec 2007 18:04:49 +0000 http://www.arghink.com/2007/12/19/shar-8-59000-words/#comment-17093 Oh, and one more thing: if you have a specific question, do come over to the Dictionary.com forum on Delphi forums. We discuss this kind of thing all the time. ;) Oh, and one more thing: if you have a specific question, do come over to the Dictionary.com forum on Delphi forums. We discuss this kind of thing all the time.
;)

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]]> By: AgTigress http://www.arghink.com/2007/12/19/shar-8-59000-words/#comment-17092 AgTigress Thu, 20 Dec 2007 18:02:25 +0000 http://www.arghink.com/2007/12/19/shar-8-59000-words/#comment-17092 Colognegrrl: are you interested chiefly in BE <i><b>slang</i></b> or in UK regional/class <i><b>dialects</i></b>? Cockney and Estuary English are both dialects, and rhyming slang is just one element within the Cockney dialect. Current British slang is well covered on the 'peevish.co.uk' website (can't remember the full URL offhand, but you'll get it by googling 'slang' and 'peevish'). Be warned that a lot of it is seriously and unpleasantly obscene, violent and misogynistic, so you might not want to let your students loose on it! Reprints are available of Francis Grose, <i>The Vulgar Tongue</i>, the first slang dictionary, originally published in 1785. One of Georgette Heyer's sources for her Georgian and later dialogue! On regional and class dialects, many of David Crystal's books contain relevant material. A good scholarly resource is Arthur Hughes, Peter Trudgill & Dominic West, <i>English Accents and Dialects; an introduction to Social and Regional Varieties of English in the British Isles</i>, (4th edition, London 2005): it comes with a CD, which is very useful. A more popular treatment of the same theme is Simon Elmes, <i>Talking for Britain</i>, a BBC/Penguin book, 2005. The Wikipedia article online about Estuary English is pretty good, with some helpful links. And to answer your question, Cockney is not obsolete, but demographic and other changes have made it a far less widely-spoken London dialect than it was even 50 years ago. There are interesting special sidelines, like Anglo-Indian vocabulary in BE, going back to the 17th century (the standard dictionary, known as 'Hobson-Jobson' was published in the 1880s, and is still in print), now vastly augmented by the modern cross-fertilisation of English and Hindi, Urdu, Bengali and other Indian languages. There are dialects in many British cities that arise from certain ethnic communities, and which often cross over between, say, Pakistani and Afro-Caribbean Londoners. Subtleties like the 'U- and non-U' question - class-based dialect - require a lot of background knowledge of English (rather than British), society. If you are interested, the book to read on that is Kate Fox, <i>Watching the English: the hidden rules of English behaviour</i>, (London 2004). It is a scholarly book (the author is a well-qualified social anthroplogist), but is a really witty, entertaining read. Actually, her chapter on language is probably not her best, but still gives a good background picture. :) Colognegrrl: are you interested chiefly in BE slang or in UK regional/class dialects? Cockney and Estuary English are both dialects, and rhyming slang is just one element within the Cockney dialect. Current British slang is well covered on the ‘peevish.co.uk’ website (can’t remember the full URL offhand, but you’ll get it by googling ‘slang’ and ‘peevish’). Be warned that a lot of it is seriously and unpleasantly obscene, violent and misogynistic, so you might not want to let your students loose on it! Reprints are available of Francis Grose, The Vulgar Tongue, the first slang dictionary, originally published in 1785. One of Georgette Heyer’s sources for her Georgian and later dialogue!
On regional and class dialects, many of David Crystal’s books contain relevant material. A good scholarly resource is Arthur Hughes, Peter Trudgill & Dominic West, English Accents and Dialects; an introduction to Social and Regional Varieties of English in the British Isles, (4th edition, London 2005): it comes with a CD, which is very useful. A more popular treatment of the same theme is Simon Elmes, Talking for Britain, a BBC/Penguin book, 2005.
The Wikipedia article online about Estuary English is pretty good, with some helpful links. And to answer your question, Cockney is not obsolete, but demographic and other changes have made it a far less widely-spoken London dialect than it was even 50 years ago.
There are interesting special sidelines, like Anglo-Indian vocabulary in BE, going back to the 17th century (the standard dictionary, known as ‘Hobson-Jobson’ was published in the 1880s, and is still in print), now vastly augmented by the modern cross-fertilisation of English and Hindi, Urdu, Bengali and other Indian languages. There are dialects in many British cities that arise from certain ethnic communities, and which often cross over between, say, Pakistani and Afro-Caribbean Londoners.
Subtleties like the ‘U- and non-U’ question – class-based dialect – require a lot of background knowledge of English (rather than British), society. If you are interested, the book to read on that is Kate Fox, Watching the English: the hidden rules of English behaviour, (London 2004). It is a scholarly book (the author is a well-qualified social anthroplogist), but is a really witty, entertaining read. Actually, her chapter on language is probably not her best, but still gives a good background picture.
:)

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]]> By: Bob http://www.arghink.com/2007/12/19/shar-8-59000-words/#comment-17086 Bob Thu, 20 Dec 2007 17:38:39 +0000 http://www.arghink.com/2007/12/19/shar-8-59000-words/#comment-17086 I write 59,000 words before breakfast. Psshhwww. Of course, they're not intelligible words. But they're words. I write 59,000 words before breakfast. Psshhwww.
Of course, they’re not intelligible words. But they’re words.

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]]> By: colognegrrl http://www.arghink.com/2007/12/19/shar-8-59000-words/#comment-17080 colognegrrl Thu, 20 Dec 2007 15:37:30 +0000 http://www.arghink.com/2007/12/19/shar-8-59000-words/#comment-17080 As we are talking language now - AgTigress, do you have an idea where I can find out more about British 'slang specialties'? Is 'cockney' obsolete? Is it important to have a closer look at Estuary? I will have to teach my 11th graders about that next semester and I really don't know much about it myself. (Seems I'm too focussed on American English...) As we are talking language now – AgTigress, do you have an idea where I can find out more about British ‘slang specialties’? Is ‘cockney’ obsolete? Is it important to have a closer look at Estuary? I will have to teach my 11th graders about that next semester and I really don’t know much about it myself. (Seems I’m too focussed on American English…)

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]]> By: AgTigress http://www.arghink.com/2007/12/19/shar-8-59000-words/#comment-17049 AgTigress Thu, 20 Dec 2007 10:53:39 +0000 http://www.arghink.com/2007/12/19/shar-8-59000-words/#comment-17049 Kira, variations in <i>syntax</i> as well as vocabulary and pronunciation are very common indeed in different dialects, certainly in British English, and, from what I have learned in forum discussions, in American English too. Rather rough dialect distribution maps can certainly be drawn up on the basis of vocabularies, but better ones rely on pronunciation (e.g. the well-known 'marry, merry, Mary' one, 'cot/caught' and so forth), and on syntactical idiosyncracies. Pronunciation and syntax are much more reliable regional indicators, since vocabulary choice can be quite conscious. A person may pick up the habit of saying 'pop' instead of 'soda' because the people with whom he associates say 'pop', but is less likely to change the pronunciation of a vowel that occurs throughout his everyday discourse, or to start (or stop) saying 'it needs washed'. It is easy for me to remember to speak of 'gas' rather than 'petrol' when I am in the USA, but I'll still speak of it in an RP British accent! Some dialect usages (in the UK as well as North America) arise from the retention of older English forms that have died out elsewhere, while others are linked with other languages used in given areas, e.g. the archaic Low German of some areas of Pennsylvania, which has definitely affected the grammatical structure of the English used in that vicinity. :) Kira, variations in syntax as well as vocabulary and pronunciation are very common indeed in different dialects, certainly in British English, and, from what I have learned in forum discussions, in American English too. Rather rough dialect distribution maps can certainly be drawn up on the basis of vocabularies, but better ones rely on pronunciation (e.g. the well-known ‘marry, merry, Mary’ one, ‘cot/caught’ and so forth), and on syntactical idiosyncracies. Pronunciation and syntax are much more reliable regional indicators, since vocabulary choice can be quite conscious. A person may pick up the habit of saying ‘pop’ instead of ‘soda’ because the people with whom he associates say ‘pop’, but is less likely to change the pronunciation of a vowel that occurs throughout his everyday discourse, or to start (or stop) saying ‘it needs washed’. It is easy for me to remember to speak of ‘gas’ rather than ‘petrol’ when I am in the USA, but I’ll still speak of it in an RP British accent!
Some dialect usages (in the UK as well as North America) arise from the retention of older English forms that have died out elsewhere, while others are linked with other languages used in given areas, e.g. the archaic Low German of some areas of Pennsylvania, which has definitely affected the grammatical structure of the English used in that vicinity.
:)

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]]> By: Kira http://www.arghink.com/2007/12/19/shar-8-59000-words/#comment-16939 Kira Thu, 20 Dec 2007 07:36:03 +0000 http://www.arghink.com/2007/12/19/shar-8-59000-words/#comment-16939 Butter honey cookies? Eh. Butter's good, but honey in cookies? It doesn't do much. Bits of toffee, or how about honey pecans? "Needs done" can't be parsed in my dialect. We say "needs doing". It's unusual to see a syntax variation in dialect; normally it's just vocabulary, like what you call the colored candies one puts on top of ice cream. Apparently, one can draw a map of the US based on what one calls them. Butter honey cookies? Eh. Butter’s good, but honey in cookies? It doesn’t do much. Bits of toffee, or how about honey pecans?

“Needs done” can’t be parsed in my dialect. We say “needs doing”.

It’s unusual to see a syntax variation in dialect; normally it’s just vocabulary, like what you call the colored candies one puts on top of ice cream. Apparently, one can draw a map of the US based on what one calls them.

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]]> By: pixburgh http://www.arghink.com/2007/12/19/shar-8-59000-words/#comment-16919 pixburgh Thu, 20 Dec 2007 06:46:08 +0000 http://www.arghink.com/2007/12/19/shar-8-59000-words/#comment-16919 "A Southern Ohioism, I think. That grass needs mowed, those dishes need washed. Copy editors take it out of my dialogue all the time and I put it back in." It's also common in Pittsburgh, just east of yinz. “A Southern Ohioism, I think. That grass needs mowed, those dishes need washed. Copy editors take it out of my dialogue all the time and I put it back in.”

It’s also common in Pittsburgh, just east of yinz.

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]]> By: jessie http://www.arghink.com/2007/12/19/shar-8-59000-words/#comment-16776 jessie Thu, 20 Dec 2007 01:19:25 +0000 http://www.arghink.com/2007/12/19/shar-8-59000-words/#comment-16776 I tried to figure out if you could do a tea infusion, something like Lady Grey, then realized most butter cookies have no liquid in them to infuse and also, it might be disgusting. Which might not be all bad. If you put it on the duvet -or what remains of it - and Milton eats it. It could cure him of gnawing on the duvet. :) I tried to figure out if you could do a tea infusion, something like Lady Grey, then realized most butter cookies have no liquid in them to infuse and also, it might be disgusting. Which might not be all bad. If you put it on the duvet -or what remains of it – and Milton eats it. It could cure him of gnawing on the duvet. :)

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]]> By: Strop http://www.arghink.com/2007/12/19/shar-8-59000-words/#comment-16753 Strop Wed, 19 Dec 2007 21:35:44 +0000 http://www.arghink.com/2007/12/19/shar-8-59000-words/#comment-16753 Eucalyptus honey. It's too strong, I find, if I eat it straight from the jar but mixed into stuff, like warm milk, it gives a wonderful toffee flavour. Eucalyptus honey. It’s too strong, I find, if I eat it straight from the jar but mixed into stuff, like warm milk, it gives a wonderful toffee flavour.

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]]> By: Cary http://www.arghink.com/2007/12/19/shar-8-59000-words/#comment-16751 Cary Wed, 19 Dec 2007 21:24:32 +0000 http://www.arghink.com/2007/12/19/shar-8-59000-words/#comment-16751 Now, now, don't forget the iMac. Gotta love that widescreen, perfect for writing and layout; and the ability to multitask. I made recipe cards for my now-retired father last night. TextEdit, Pages, and Safari, all open at once, all working nicely together. Try that with my stupid Vista "work" laptop? I don't think so. Besides, Word hates me. It never plays nicely when I need to design stuff. Thanks for the many tips, Jenny. I'm in love with the computer again. Now, now, don’t forget the iMac. Gotta love that widescreen, perfect for writing and layout; and the ability to multitask. I made recipe cards for my now-retired father last night. TextEdit, Pages, and Safari, all open at once, all working nicely together. Try that with my stupid Vista “work” laptop? I don’t think so. Besides, Word hates me. It never plays nicely when I need to design stuff.

Thanks for the many tips, Jenny. I’m in love with the computer again.

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]]> By: Jan P http://www.arghink.com/2007/12/19/shar-8-59000-words/#comment-16733 Jan P Wed, 19 Dec 2007 19:42:50 +0000 http://www.arghink.com/2007/12/19/shar-8-59000-words/#comment-16733 (Sung to the tune of White Christmas) "I'm dreaming of a Mac Pro while I'm loving those treats from Au Bon Pain" You certain people are corrupting... "Apple stock" Jenny, hint, hint- buy now before you drives sales even further... My daughter is also telling the dad, "paleeze get her the pro so she'll leave mine alone"....;) smart child (snicker, snicker} (Sung to the tune of White Christmas) “I’m dreaming of a Mac Pro while I’m loving those treats from Au Bon Pain”

You certain people are corrupting…

“Apple stock” Jenny, hint, hint- buy now before you drives sales even further…

My daughter is also telling the dad, “paleeze get her the pro so she’ll leave mine alone”….;) smart child (snicker, snicker}

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]]> By: AgTigress http://www.arghink.com/2007/12/19/shar-8-59000-words/#comment-16732 AgTigress Wed, 19 Dec 2007 19:40:20 +0000 http://www.arghink.com/2007/12/19/shar-8-59000-words/#comment-16732 Jenny said: "A Southern Ohioism, I think. That grass needs mowed, those dishes need washed. Copy editors take it out of my dialogue all the time and I put it back in." Love it! We had a discussion on that particular idiom on the Dictionary.com forum a year or two ago. I think it occurs in some other areas of the USA, too. For those of us who do not use it, it really catches the attention. But others were equally surprised about what <i>I</i> would say there: 'the chapter wants revising; the grass wants mowing; those dishes want washing'. Language is such fun. :D Jenny said: “A Southern Ohioism, I think. That grass needs mowed, those dishes need washed. Copy editors take it out of my dialogue all the time and I put it back in.”

Love it! We had a discussion on that particular idiom on the Dictionary.com forum a year or two ago. I think it occurs in some other areas of the USA, too. For those of us who do not use it, it really catches the attention. But others were equally surprised about what I would say there: ‘the chapter wants revising; the grass wants mowing; those dishes want washing’. Language is such fun.
:D

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]]> By: jessie http://www.arghink.com/2007/12/19/shar-8-59000-words/#comment-16731 jessie Wed, 19 Dec 2007 19:30:53 +0000 http://www.arghink.com/2007/12/19/shar-8-59000-words/#comment-16731 So. Daisy gets spice. Shar gets spice. Abby gets sweet and bland. Can she add nuts? How about almonds? What about some exotic honey - lavendar or fireweed? Although they probably wouldn't change the final flavor once they were cooked. I am still toying with the lemon garlic basil cookies. I figure get rid of the sugar, top them with one of the new finishing salts (alcea red or turkish black flake salt, something like that) and serve them with champagne. So. Daisy gets spice. Shar gets spice. Abby gets sweet and bland.

Can she add nuts? How about almonds? What about some exotic honey – lavendar or fireweed? Although they probably wouldn’t change the final flavor once they were cooked.

I am still toying with the lemon garlic basil cookies. I figure get rid of the sugar, top them with one of the new finishing salts (alcea red or turkish black flake salt, something like that) and serve them with champagne.

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]]> By: Evesie http://www.arghink.com/2007/12/19/shar-8-59000-words/#comment-16728 Evesie Wed, 19 Dec 2007 19:19:19 +0000 http://www.arghink.com/2007/12/19/shar-8-59000-words/#comment-16728 damn you all. when I end up in a sugar coma (which I will not wake up from until next holiday season) because of all your cookie talk, it will be your fault. Goddesses? More like evil minions (and you all know too much about evil minions, hmm why is that??) Currently, you should feel ashamed because I am stuffing my face with Hazelnut Dream Cookies from Au Bon Pain. Soon I too will be dreaming...indefinitely. damn you all. when I end up in a sugar coma (which I will not wake up from until next holiday season) because of all your cookie talk, it will be your fault. Goddesses? More like evil minions (and you all know too much about evil minions, hmm why is that??)

Currently, you should feel ashamed because I am stuffing my face with Hazelnut Dream Cookies from Au Bon Pain. Soon I too will be dreaming…indefinitely.

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]]> By: Jenny http://www.arghink.com/2007/12/19/shar-8-59000-words/#comment-16727 Jenny Wed, 19 Dec 2007 19:07:55 +0000 http://www.arghink.com/2007/12/19/shar-8-59000-words/#comment-16727 Kira, it is. A Southern Ohioism, I think. That grass needs mowed, those dishes need washed. Copy editors take it out of my dialogue all the time and I put it back in. Jessie, we're working with specific flavors for the cookies. Abby's is butter and honey, Daisy's is cinnamon, and Shar's is licorice/anise. So while lemon would be yummy it wouldn't work. Argh. And congratulations on that Mac, Office Wench. You're gonna love it. Kira, it is. A Southern Ohioism, I think. That grass needs mowed, those dishes need washed. Copy editors take it out of my dialogue all the time and I put it back in.

Jessie, we’re working with specific flavors for the cookies. Abby’s is butter and honey, Daisy’s is cinnamon, and Shar’s is licorice/anise. So while lemon would be yummy it wouldn’t work.

Argh.

And congratulations on that Mac, Office Wench. You’re gonna love it.

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]]> By: Office Wench Cherry http://www.arghink.com/2007/12/19/shar-8-59000-words/#comment-16725 Office Wench Cherry Wed, 19 Dec 2007 18:28:53 +0000 http://www.arghink.com/2007/12/19/shar-8-59000-words/#comment-16725 Wheeee! We like speed. But we also like depth and emotion too. As a side note, Jenny, you should put "Mac Pimp" on your resume. After hating my old computer and hearing how you love yours I talked my husband into getting a Mac. I used them in college, about 10 years ago, and loved them but I coldn't afford one until now. We picked up our Macbook Pro yesterday. Of course, I'm at work and my husband who is on days off is at home playing with it. At least he got the wireless working. Apple should give you a referal fee. Wheeee! We like speed. But we also like depth and emotion too.

As a side note, Jenny, you should put “Mac Pimp” on your resume. After hating my old computer and hearing how you love yours I talked my husband into getting a Mac. I used them in college, about 10 years ago, and loved them but I coldn’t afford one until now. We picked up our Macbook Pro yesterday. Of course, I’m at work and my husband who is on days off is at home playing with it. At least he got the wireless working.

Apple should give you a referal fee.

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]]> By: jessie http://www.arghink.com/2007/12/19/shar-8-59000-words/#comment-16722 jessie Wed, 19 Dec 2007 18:24:10 +0000 http://www.arghink.com/2007/12/19/shar-8-59000-words/#comment-16722 This is a couple of days late but I have been thinking about your butter cookie recipe needing zip. The next time you try it you might add about 1 teaspoon of lemon zest, or heck, orange zest or tangerine zest or lime zest even grapefruit zest if you are feeling particularly dangerous. Or any combination of them. And if you have a micro-grater it is really easy to do zest. Lot of people have problems using a micro-grater because they seem to grate their knuckles. But really, you just have to develop the technique of watching were you put your fingers. And it is excellent for mincing garlic - instant garlic puree! Oh, you could do lemon-garlic cookies and add a little basil and you would probably have the latest epicurean fad. :) This is a couple of days late but I have been thinking about your butter cookie recipe needing zip. The next time you try it you might add about 1 teaspoon of lemon zest, or heck, orange zest or tangerine zest or lime zest even grapefruit zest if you are feeling particularly dangerous. Or any combination of them. And if you have a micro-grater it is really easy to do zest. Lot of people have problems using a micro-grater because they seem to grate their knuckles. But really, you just have to develop the technique of watching were you put your fingers. And it is excellent for mincing garlic – instant garlic puree! Oh, you could do lemon-garlic cookies and add a little basil and you would probably have the latest epicurean fad. :)

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