Save the Commercial, Save the World
Apr172007
Dove has just brought out a new line of products and I’m going to be buying them, probably by the case. The line is called “Pro-Age” in a reaction to the implied criticism in “anti-age” products, which pretty much tells you that age is bad, tough luck for you that you can’t avoid it unless you drop big bucks on their miracle gunk. (Well, there’s another way, but it’s death.) The ad is here, but for those of you who have dial-ups and can’t see it (it was deemed too racy for television so you won’t be seeing it there, either), it’s a series of four nudes, carefully posed so that none of the interesting bits are showing, all of whom are over fifty. One is softly, lusciously zaftig in the way older women are. There are wrinkles and age spots. They are the antithesis of the women that every anti-aging skin care line flashes on the screen, a fact Dove reinforces by running type across each woman toward the end of her segment that says, “Too old to be in an anti-age ad.” Then they end the ad by saying, “But this isn’t anti-age, this is pro-age . . . Beauty has no age limit . . . Dove is Pro-Age, not Anti-Age.”
Okay, this is freaking brilliant marketing for several reasons, not the least of which they’ve just made every product out there labeled “anti-age” the bad guy. I am stunned by the genius behind this concept. But it’s not just neutering the competition that makes this campaign so great; this ad is positive in the way it sells the product and the brand. I’m fifty-seven, and after watching the commercial, I’m loving Dove. And it’s not even the company that makes the chocolate.
But that’s not the end of the marketing genius here. Before they play the commercial, there’s a line on the screen: “Watch what we couldn’t show you on TV and then tell us what you think.” And then inside the website there’s a montage labeled “hear the reaction to the commercial.” It’s wonderful to watch because of all the smiling women who are obviously delighted to see naked peers in television commercials, but there are two women in there who, I swear to God, are the cousins of the Church Lady. They’re both tense as piano wire and they both say the same thing, “The American public is not ready to see that, or probably doesn’t want to” and “I don’t think that American women are as willing to be that out there with their bodies over fifty years of age.” I wanted to grab them by throats and say, “Well, aren’t you SPECIAL.”
But then I started to wonder if they were ringers. Because you really do not like them. And because you do not like them, you want to prove to them that women do want to see that. You want them to find out that their narrow ideas of beauty for women are criminally wrong. You want to show them so much, you just want to go out and . . .
Buy a lot of Dove Pro-Age.
Really, you do. Because if this ad campaign fails, we’ll be back to some airbrushed thirty-five-year-old telling us about how she’s worried about wrinkles. I’ve got a neck like a Shar-pei, but she’s worried about “fine lines.” Bite me, cookie. Now show me that Pro-Age commericial again. Damn, I love those women.
So I’m wondering if the geniuses behind this campaign didn’t set up some antagonists for me so that I’d side with Dove, clearly the good guys here. I wonder if I’m being manipulated. I’m not sure because if these piano-wire women are real, then aging must be making them miserable–they’re essentially saying, “Nobody wants to see me naked”–and their unhappiness may be showing in their rigid body language and tight faces. Or they could be really good actresses and Dove is just manipulating me.
But here’s the kicker: I don’t care. I don’t even care if the ProAge products are lousy. I’m going to buy them because I want to see more commercials. Basically, they had me at “Too many people think beauty has an age limit.” The four fantastic naked chicks over fifty were just gravy, and I have strong feelings about gravy.
Dove Pro-Age. Buy it so we can keep watching the commercials.
[Comments for this post are continued on the next post, "Magic Hips."]
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157 Comments to 'Save the Commercial, Save the World'
On April 18, 2007 at 12:03 am micki said...
This is so weird! I just saw these ads last night in a More magazine my mom sent me. (Love that mag, too!) I was a little surprised at first, but they are BEAUTIFUL woman, wrinkles and love handles and all. Just gorgeous advertising, just gorgeous women.
(-: I think I will ask my mom to send some Pro-Age stuff. Nothing’s going to keep me buying the stuff if it’s not good for me, BUT, wouldn’t it be great if women asked the company to start selling prints of the ad? Or if they could put it on hand towels somehow — really lovely tie-in that would look great in a master bath.
I wonder where we can send some positive feedback to the Dove company? Guess I better go google.
On April 18, 2007 at 12:18 am Stressed-Out Cherry said...
This gave me something to look forward. And for the record I already swear by Dove.
On April 18, 2007 at 12:47 am Brianna said...
1) I love that redhead’s hair. I want a mass of curly red-hair goodness. So delicious.
2) I’m hoping when I reach my 50′s and 60′s that I look as good as those women.
On April 18, 2007 at 12:47 am micki said...
More info: they have a board (must register) and a contact us (asks for a lot of info), so it’s possible to register your support.
I saw the print ads in the March 2007 More magazine (front inside cover and flyleaf). A few pages along, you can see the Olay age-defying add.
To be absolutely cynical and skeptical, they are both selling soap and willing to manipulate our feelings to do it. But, at least Dove is inviting us to rejoice in our bodies, while Olay (I wonder just how old their model is anyway!) is asking us to deny it.
On April 18, 2007 at 12:51 am orangehands said...
Do you not absolutely love this new campaign line? Have you seen the one with the little girls and teens and they’re like “i hate my freckles”, “i wish i was blond”, etc, and your heart just goes out.
Like you, I can’t decide if their amazing campaigns are manipulative or not, and I can’t say I care. Because I love these commercials.
another favorite:
http://www.campaignforrealbeauty.com/flat4.asp?id=6909
i used Dove and liked it before this, but now I’m all for them. seriously, check out their whole thing- it’s so f-ing cool.
On April 18, 2007 at 12:53 am orangehands said...
yep, they’re both selling products. but the positive thing more than makes up for it.
On April 18, 2007 at 12:57 am orangehands said...
Here, I found the girl/teen one. The one they play on TV is edited more (it’s basically just the girls that have lines of “i hate” next to them that show up on TV), and i like it better, but still.
On April 18, 2007 at 12:58 am orangehands said...
ok…probably helps if i add the link:
http://www.campaignforrealbeauty.com/flat4.asp?id=7244
On April 18, 2007 at 1:00 am orangehands said...
my only one little critique of this is that while they are all not white, the majority of them are. but still…
ok, i’m really going this time.
On April 18, 2007 at 1:09 am orangehands said...
i’m just looking at the study they commissioned. one interesting thing is the list of countries. again, race plays a part in this too. and colonialism. and…don’t get me started. once again, great commercials.
i will now shut up and go into a corner.
On April 18, 2007 at 1:19 am downundergal said...
Wow! Beautiful ads. Very savvy.
Some seriously warped comments though…..
On April 18, 2007 at 1:21 am Reb said...
Yes, that’s very, very cool. I love the film at http://www.campaignforrealbeauty.com/flat4.asp?id=7244. Very interesting to see how they “transformed” that girl.
They’ve just sold it to me too.
On April 18, 2007 at 1:43 am Jenny said...
Wow. To both of those ads, the little girls and the model.
Now I’m even more a Dove fan. This sure is simplifying my buying decisions. Any company that will do this, I’m supporting.
Somebody tell me they make the chocolate, so I have to buy a lot of that, too.
On April 18, 2007 at 1:47 am cary said...
The power of “relational” advertising. Beats the “aspirational” advertising, for me, anyway. Lot easier to see myself in an aging, zaftig, grey-haired female (without the naked in print part), than as a rich, botoxed, lifted, dyed, and -sucked “anti-aging” model.
On April 18, 2007 at 2:03 am Saucy Minx Cherry said...
I love Dove. I’ve been watching since the Campaign For Real Beauty started, and I hope that this has been a winner for them.
I’m 46. I’ll never look like I did when I was 16 again, and even if I did, I didn’t appreciate it then. I thought I was fat. I thought I was ugly. I didn’t look like a cheerleader or a fashion model. I look at photos taken then, and I looked fine. If I’d spent as much time going after the things I truly wanted in life, instead of worrying about how I looked, it would have been a much better thing.
The Head Cherry is right. It’s pro-age. There is nothing more beautiful than the confidence of a woman who celebrates who she is at any age.
On April 18, 2007 at 2:18 am Stressed-Out Cherry said...
What’s making these adds so great is the fact they are telling beauty is exactly who and what you are. Rolls, crow’s feet and that we have quirks not flaws. The other adds tells you to hide, cover, dye, stretch, pull to fit an ideal image.
Not to mention their soap, shampoo, lotion smells like heaven. That’s marketing, baby.
On April 18, 2007 at 2:20 am SMH said...
They’re playing it here in Canada, I’ve seen the ad sevral times on TV and I think that it’s great. It’s a great attitude for a skin care company and even better for women. The world would be a better place if more people had outlooks like they do.
On April 18, 2007 at 2:53 am Strop said...
We’ve had these a while in the UK, and last night I saw the TV ad for the self-tanning lotion. Three curvy women, dancing – really good, supple dancers – and in their bikinis.
Now if Dove make self-tanning lotion that doesn’t stink like every other self tanner, I’m in there.
On April 18, 2007 at 5:54 am Jennifer Talty said...
Dove – great product and many dermitologists swear by it. It’s good for your whole body. Face and other parts. Use it.
I think the ad is spetacular and I’m a “anti” age kind of gal. I’m vain. I don’t like getting older and I don’t want any more wrinkles, or body flubber, or anything else, but hell, it’s a part of life and well, I guess I better just damn well get over that one since growing older happens weather we like it or not.
On April 18, 2007 at 5:54 am micki said...
OH: (-: Birds gotta bird, bees gotta bees, and advertisers gotta manipulate. But sometimes they figure out a way to do it that helps the world change.
I remember when I was a very little girl, one of the first songs I learned was “I’d like to give the world a Coke . . . .”
I’m in Japan, and I’m going to keep a lookout for how the advertising plays out here. I’ve only noticed Dove here in the last five years or so, so I think it’s a relatively new player to the Japanese soap market.
On April 18, 2007 at 6:37 am Jennifer Talty said...
Strop – Dove may not make one, but Jergens does.
Jergens Natural Glow Daily Moisturizer. At least I don’t think it smells like the rest of them. I use it daily.
On April 18, 2007 at 6:50 am Rox said...
I once wondered if the two Doves were the same company, but alas, no. Dove chocolate is owned by Mars, Inc. and Dove beauty products is owned by Unilever.
Still, both genius companies.
On April 18, 2007 at 6:55 am Jaci Burton said...
Love them, love them, love them. I think they’re freakin brilliant, and not just for their advertising to the over 50 crowd, but also their general advertising to every real bodied woman out there. I think they’re geniuses and I have started buying their products, which are just as good as any other product on the market out there, so why not support the company that uses real looking women as models?
On April 18, 2007 at 8:37 am McB said...
I love this ad! Jenny thanks so much for sharing it. Sometimes you see something on tv with older actresses. Some of them are clearly fighting the aging process tooth and claw; some are more graceful about it. Note, being graceful about aging doesn’t have to mean you let yourself go, or stop taking care of your skin. But the thing that always strikes me is how beautiful the ‘graceful’ actress are. The others, the ones who are fighting so desperately, actually seem older by comparison.
I knew I woman years ago who was terrified of getting older. Still is for all I know. She was experimenting with anti-wrinkle stuff before she was 30. Dieted herself down to the toothpick stage (which, not coincidentally, resulted in the lines and sagging being more evident as she got older). As 40 approached she actually did Botox to get rid of laugh lines around her eyes and tried to convince me how great it was. I told her that my laugh lines show that I have laughed a lot in my life and I’m damned proud of them.
On April 18, 2007 at 8:39 am McB said...
Strop – what Jen said about Jergens Natural Glow, I agree. I start using it a few weeks before I go on vacation so I’m not pasty looking. Its a subtle cumulative thing and no nasty smell. Good stuff.
On April 18, 2007 at 9:11 am Kieran said...
I am surrounded by women who Botox the hell out of their faces and surgically remove the actual MUSCLE between their eyes to avoid getting wrinkles there and are instead left with a slight valley in their foreheads, which is so grotesque to me that I can’t believe we have taken obsession with youth this far. Can we stand up here and say, “I have wrinkles and I am proud?” Like the “I am a great writer” section of the Cherry Forums? Because I have all these new wrinkles–in my wrists, my elbows, places I never noticed wrinkles before! And I am proud that I have made it this far.
On April 18, 2007 at 9:24 am Chelle said...
I love these ads. I first saw the ad with the model when one of my uncles came over and said Sunshine had to watch it so she’d know that the pics in the mags aren’t real. He also runs a K-8 school and he made all the girls in 5-8 watch it with the parents. Isn’t it cool that even guys want us to know that they think we’re beautiful just as we are?
Anyone ever heard of India Arie? I love her and I’ve been listening to her music for a fews years now. My favorite song of hers is “Video” from her Acoustic Soul CD. Here’s some of the lyrics:
I’m not your average girl from your video
And I ain’t built like a Super Model
But, I learned to love myself Unconditionally
Because
I am
A Queen.
I’m NOT the average girl from your video
My worth is not determined by the price of my clothes.
No matter what I’m wearing I will always be India Arie.
Sunshine and I insert our names at the end. That’s the chorus, the rest of the song is just as great. Right up there with “I Am A Great Writer”, IMHO.
Thanks Jenny. Love this!
On April 18, 2007 at 10:03 am Eva Gale said...
I LOVE those commercials! I mean, they are riviting. So beautiful, and I hope I look just as when I’m that age too. And they make me buy the Dove. For just the same reasons, I want to support them and help them make more of those commercials. I had my hand on something else the other day and then I chose different because of the way they empowered women.
On April 18, 2007 at 10:07 am Deb said...
Here, in the Great White North ™, we get to see the commercials.
My Dad likes the one with the longs legs – reminds him of my Mom =)
Dove Rocks!
On April 18, 2007 at 10:17 am Office Wench Cherry said...
What I love about the Pro-Age and Campaign for Real Beauty is that they don’t try to make women and girls afraid. Every time the Pro-Age commercial comes on tv I cheer. I am so proud of Dove for taking this stance with their ads. Yes, it’s blantant manipulation but I’d rather be manipulated into feeling good about myself than into spending the mortgage money on Youth-And-Generic-Beauty-In-A-Bottle.
The sad part is that even if the Church Lady cousins are ringers, they represent a very real portion of the population. I feel bad for them.
On April 18, 2007 at 10:26 am roben said...
Wonderful! I love these ads too. And yes, I’m all into empowering women at any age. Go Dove!
On April 18, 2007 at 10:30 am Marcia in OK said...
Thanks for sharing the add link Jenny. OH thanks for the links to ads for girls.
As a single middle-aged mom of two pre-teen daughters, I’m supporting Dove. What a brave company. Spread the word. More women and girls need this info.
On April 18, 2007 at 10:42 am JulieB said...
Jenny wrote: “Okay, this is freaking brilliant marketing for several reasons, not the least of which they’ve just made every product out there labeled “anti-age” the bad guy.”
This is truely the
“Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears;
I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him.”
commercial of the industry. It is genius.
As to whether the comments in the are real or not, I was on the fence about it, but I have seen enough letters to the editor in my day to think that there is a strong possibility they are real. 50-50.
I’m glad others have mentioned the Campaign for Real Beauty ads as well. I thought they were great. But ever since I’ve had kids I get teary at commercials and am a pretty big sap now.
1 – It’s an ad for a product, and the two isolated comments may be there to manipulate us (or they may just be a poorly worded comment on the fact that the spot couldn’t be shown on TV)
2 – By having people register to leave comments, they are aquiring a great deal of data on their consumers which they will then use to make a profit.
3 – I don’t really care, because I think the bottom line of both campaigns is great, and enough people at Dove have their head on straight, especially in light of the self-esteem ads. (But I’m not going to register either.)
On a tangental note — our pediatrician recommended Dove years ago when we were washing babies. But it makes them even slipperier if you can believe that.
On April 18, 2007 at 10:52 am Pam W. said...
(Soapbox Alert!!!)
I think it’s great that Dove is trying to step out of the typical model mode and show women how they really are (doesn’t Haines or somebody else do that, too?), but I’ve made a promise to myself to not purchase any beauty or cleaning product produced by a company that isn’t cruelty free. Unilever isn’t one of those companies. Avon is, so that’s where I put my money.
(Stepping off soapbox.)
The product aside, I would love to see that commercial on tv just to start the ball really rolling. Soon we’ll see plus size women eating something other than Jenny Craig (God forbid!), gray haired ladies shopping for Crocs and Doc Martins and less than drop dead beautiful women getting proposed to by a handsome man with a huge diamond.
On April 18, 2007 at 11:02 am Cheri Micheletti said...
But–why is do the women with the most wrinkles have obviously ‘amended’ hair color? Hair color–the next battle? Please?
On April 18, 2007 at 11:02 am Tina Bendoni said...
I have used Dove products for a number of years. I remember when their deodorant first came out they had a couple women that were either slightly chubby or not typically beautiful by Hollywood standards. It made me try their deodorant, just because of that. But since they have started their Campaign for Real Beauty, almost everything I can buy by them, I do. Yes, we are being manipulated. No, I don’t care. If I can support a company that manipulates me and every other female on this planet to feel good about who we are and what we are, then manipulate away. I would much rather that than support a company that tells me I am not pretty enough, skinny enough, young enough.
On April 18, 2007 at 11:27 am K.L. said...
You know, now that I think about it, that is part of the reason I really like Bet Me. Min isn’t perfect. She has curves. She loves food. She is sensual and insecure about her looks. Sound familiar? I bet Min uses Dove soap.
On April 18, 2007 at 11:37 am Kieran said...
>
Cheri, did you see Nora Ephron on “Oprah” saying that the one thing that has saved us from old age the way our mothers experienced it is…hair dye? She said in the old days, you had a choice of blue or pink hair, and that we have so many younger looking women today because of advances in hair coloring. I kinda like having options for hair color. To me coloring your hair is less an age statement than a personality statement.
On April 18, 2007 at 12:16 pm Rosie said...
I’m fifty-seven, and after watching the commercial, I’m loving Dove. And it’s not even the company that makes the chocolate.
Wow, now that’s an endorsement.
On April 18, 2007 at 12:32 pm Brooke said...
See, now I feel really bad about that Richard Gere comment. But you know, he looks about 70 whereas you look about 39. I still don’t believe Mollie is yours. You would’ve been a child bride, literally.
You do not have a neck like a Sharpei.
On April 18, 2007 at 12:36 pm McB said...
I don’t see hair coloring in the same light as anti-aging. People can go gray in their 20s or have very little in their 60s. I don’t think its that much different than my wearing make up or getting my hair cut. I’m not ashamed of aging, I just don’t see why I should encourage it.
On April 18, 2007 at 12:36 pm Katherine said...
My boyfriend thought I went crazy when I first found that commercial. I was absolutely enthralled. Those are all gorgeous women, *real* women. I hate the ads we see everywhere with every minute flaw airbrushed out. Beauty is in the freaking flaws people! I just want to scream at the people making those ads, point out that so many of us hate them.
(We have a running joke that he’s only dating me because he’s seen my mom and now knows what I’ll look like when I’m her age.)
I am an extremely lucky woman, however. I showed my boyfriend the ad and he agreed that they were beautiful. He tells me on a regular basis that he can’t wait for me to get old, “my look is one that will just get more beautiful with age.” I think he’s crazy, but at least as I get older I’ll have a reminder that I’m beautiful.
On April 18, 2007 at 12:41 pm Brooke said...
And the music is perfect.
On April 18, 2007 at 12:50 pm Victoria said...
I’m 36 and have been using Dove products for about a year and a half. Love the stuff. I’m glad they have a quality commercial that reflects the quality of the product.
I’ve seen the pro-age commercial twice in the movie theaters and loved it both times. The second time I was one of 4 women in a theater filled with guys (the movie 300, FWIW) and one 20ish soldier boy said “I don’t get it.”
On April 18, 2007 at 12:51 pm Jenny said...
My hairdresser and I are having this conversation now. I decided to let my hair grow gray back in January. She said, “It’s going to make you look older.” I said, “I’m fifty-seven, I make no secret of it, why would I care?” But she really couldn’t understand it, although she did a great job with the cut and streaked it so that the grow out would look more gradual (although under the lights I still look like a zebra). The funny thing is, I don’t notice it. When I look in the mirror I see a million flaws, but the gray is not one of them. I like it.
Of course I also had my eyes done so I’m not exactly a natural woman here. The plastic surgeon said, “You wouldn’t believe how much fat we took out from under your eyes.” I said,”Honey, I’ve been looking over that fat for years, why do you think I came in here?” So my acceptance of my gray hair is not a sign of emotional maturity; I just like it.
Which is what I like about that commercial. I didn’t look at them and think, “They look good for over fifty.” I thought, “They look good.” And then I thought, “They look like me.” When Cary wrote, “The power of “relational” advertising. Beats the “aspirational” advertising, for me, anyway. Lot easier to see myself in an aging, zaftig, grey-haired female (without the naked in print part), than as a rich, botoxed, lifted, dyed, and -sucked “anti-aging” model,” I realized that what was had happened when I watch that commercial. There was a shift inside me. I didn’t think, “Boy, I’d like to look like that,” and start wondering how to get the impossible. I thought, “I could look that good. I’m like them.” It was wonderful.
On April 18, 2007 at 1:05 pm gay said...
I’m thrilled with DOVE, for their young women ads and now for this.
It’s about time we celebrated natural beauty and revelled in who we really are, rather than aspiring to look like the rail thin waifs with photoshopped beauty and dooming ourselves to failure, because even if we can achieve the thin, who has a pixel wizard in their pocket to touch up their looks before they go out in public every day?
On April 18, 2007 at 1:05 pm Najida said...
I’m going to CVS and filling up the trunk of my car.
On April 18, 2007 at 1:20 pm Victoria said...
I just checked out the web site. Dove is doing a casting call for real women, not models. (Print ads only, from the looks of it.) My only regret is that I’m too young. Otherwise, I’d be entering. The rules are here: http://www.doveproage.com/casting_call_rules.asp.
I thought it was interesting that the essay counts for more than the photo that has to accompany it. Best possible numbers: 50 points for clarity. 40 points for sincerity and 10 points for looks. How awesome is that?
On April 18, 2007 at 1:35 pm Office Wench Cherry said...
There’s a huge difference between wanting to be the best looking you you can be and wanting to look like someone else. There’s nothing wrong with taking the steps you feel are needed to look your best whether it’s losing weight or colouring your hair. The problem comes when a person feels she needs to look like someone else to be beautiful.
I think it’s great that you got your eyes done because it sounds like it was something that you did for yourself and not the rest of the world. I had crooked teeth so at 35 I got braces, it’s the same thing. I didn’t want to look like anyone else, I just wanted to look like me with straight teeth.
On April 18, 2007 at 2:29 pm Jenny said...
My plastic surgeon was great. At the first meeting, she said, “Why do you want this?” I said, “Because I look unhappy and I’m not. I have a great life. I laugh all the time. But the first forty years of it were not good and that’s what’s on my face. I don’t want to look younger. I just want the old unhappiness gone.” I wanted a full facelift and she said no, just the eyes would do what I wanted and I’d see better, too. And she was right.
But you know, I still feel obliged to tell people that when they say I don’t look my age. I do look my age, I just look my age with some surgical help. And I think by smiling and not saying anything, I’m lying. “Oh, I’ve just taken really good care of myself.” No, I haven’t. I spend a good chunk of change to get the bags out from under my eyes. I cheated, unless I tell people.
I also wonder sometimes what telling people my age does to the books; that is, do they read my books differently after they know that I’m not a happening thirty-something? That’s the danger of public appearances, too. There are authors who are not allowed to go on book tours because the way they look would undercut their sales, although the two instances I’ve heard of were both men.
This is another reason I love that ad. Those women look their age but they don’t look stodgy, finished, out of it. Whenever you hear a story that says, “A mugger attacked a woman in her sixties,” you think, “He hit an old lady?” but I’m going to be sixty in three years, and I’m not going to be an old lady, I’m going to be younger than springtime because I am fabulous. All the women I know in their sixties are not old ladies. Hell, most of the women I know in their seventies are not old ladies. But “a woman in her fifties” still has a certain connotation, and these ads kick that in the teeth.
I’m happy in my fifties. But my society telling me I’m out of the game because I’ve come this far makes that harder. Those women are still in the game. Those women are like me.
Off to fill up MY trunk with Dove.
On April 18, 2007 at 2:55 pm Ingrid said...
Yes, those Dove people are clever. The success of their adverts with the ordinary looking girls (by no stretch of the imagination were they fat), must have made them realise there were further worlds to win.
But to be fair, the Body Shop premiered the chubby girl about ten years ago, even though it was in doll shape. Maybe you never saw those adverts in the US? I think Mattel gave them a lot of grief because the one on the settee looked like Barbie with some extra plastic wrapped round her. I seem to remember the standing one came later, she has a round face and looks less Barbie-like.
I found both pictures on the website below.
http://www.zorra.be/Ads/voor1999/Gal%20Verzorgingsproducten%20Body%20Shop.htm
On April 18, 2007 at 2:59 pm Conscripted Cherry said...
Love the casting call for Dove- I’m needing to go back and re-read but I’m wondering if I can nominate a pair of someones- I have a mother daughter team that volunteer at my museum, Mom’s 90th birthday party will be Sunday and her daughter was not a late in life baby- but trying to get them to come in sometime other than when they’re scheduled is almost impossible because they don’t have extra time- Mom volunteers for me, at the hospital, her church, is active in two bridge circles, and goes to ceramics every Monday- Daughter plays organ at church and for weddings and funerals, sits on a major advisory board for her church, still runs the family business, and is a very active where the grandkids are concerned- they both have wrinkles and are graying and Mom doesn’t drive at night any more- but both are avid readers and have such a wonderful zest for life and for learning that they are who I want to be when I grow up- also, I think it’s how they carry themselves- you treat them with respect, because you instinctively know they won’t let you treat them any other way- maybe that’s the part that I want to grow into
On April 18, 2007 at 3:38 pm Diane (TT) said...
I, too, am a Body Shop fan (not only no animal testing, but fairly traded natural ingredients), but I love the Dove ads! I definitely got choked up by the Campaign for Real Beauty ad with the kids (thanks, OH!) – I’d heard about it and, I think, seen it in print, but I don’t think I’d seen a video ad.
Jenny – on the eye surgery thing: that’s how I’d feel if I colored my hair and someone complimented me on how good I looked – as if I needed to issue a disclaimer. It took me nearly 30 years to learn to accept compliments gracefully, and I’d hate to revert to that. It’ll be interesting to see how my gray comes in (so far, the strands are visible but isolated, so it’s hard to see what the total effect will be). If it’s dull or ugly, maybe I’ll go for the curly red hair!
On April 18, 2007 at 3:57 pm Diane (TT) said...
OH – as to the fact that most of the people in the ad were white, though some were of different races, that depends on the intended audience. In most of the U.S., the majority of people ARE white. If the goal is for people to see “themselves” so they can feel positively about themselves (and see themselves buying the product!), you gotta go with the numbers. If they were to make a separate ad for CA, it should probably have more Asians and Latinas, in MS, more black women. Maybe in Oklahoma or New Mexico they could have some Native Americans. I don’t know whether that would pay off for them or not…
At least, I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, and not accuse them of tokenism.
On April 18, 2007 at 3:59 pm Theresa said...
Office Wench Cherry said:
There’s a huge difference between wanting to be the best looking you you can be and wanting to look like someone else. There’s nothing wrong with taking the steps you feel are needed to look your best whether it’s losing weight or colouring your hair. The problem comes when a person feels she needs to look like someone else to be beautiful.
Yes, yes, yes. And also, focusing on how great you can look now. I am overweight. I definitely could stand to lose weight, if only to be more healthy. But regardless, one thing I’ve really tried to focus on is that I can still look fabulous and attractive as I am now. It’s a struggle sometimes. But I’m much better at this than before. Reading books like Bet Me helps. Taking a belly dance classes that celebrate being a woman and having curves helps. Commercials like Dove’s help.
Unfortunately, I haven’t had much luck myself with Dove products. (Oily skin and 1/4 moisturizing cream don’t go together.) However, I’m thinking Mother’s day is coming up, and maybe that would be just the thing for mom. :+) Who I think is one beautiful woman no matter what her age.
On April 18, 2007 at 4:37 pm Conscripted Cherry said...
Marcia- I know you do Girl Scouts- have y’all done the Uniquely Me patch yet? It’s wonderful- and sponsored by Dove- it’s about embracing who you are and being glad you are unique- we did it with our girls (juniors) and had fun- I find it intersting that the hardest part for the girls is also something I’m hearing here- we made each girl sit in the center of a circle and graciously accept a compliment from all the other girls, we also made the leaders do the same- it was interesting how our younger girls simply said, “Thank you.” and preened a little but our older girls (by only a few years) were all awkward and had a hard time saying thank you without somr sort of disclaimer and the adults were more inclined to be sarcastic and self deprecating– The exception to the older girls was one of our girls who reads tons and refuses to watch much tv because it’s “silly” and a waste of time that could be spent reading or writing, she said “Thank you” with more grace than anyone else-
On April 18, 2007 at 5:02 pm Marcia in OK said...
CC- thanks for remembering. No we haven’t done that patch, but I’ve recommended it to my co-leaders for a summer or early fall – all day activity with “spa” activities.
Just this past weekend, my DD10 attended a mother-daughter self-esteem workshop. We did a session where we made “self-promotion” seminars and one of the first things was to LIST THREE THINGS YOU ADMIRE ABOUT YOURSELF, and my DD couldn’t come up with 3 things. It was sooooo upsetting.
At 9-10 yrs old, girls are already being pressured to fit in, look like everyone else, be worried about being fat, etc. etc.
The DOVE campaign is much needed for women of ALL ages.
Jenny, thanks for doing you part to spread the word. AARGH INK is a nice high-traffic site. It can have an impact.
On April 18, 2007 at 5:03 pm Jamie H said...
I had the same reaction whenever I see Dove commericals on tv; they feature real women, cellulite and all. Their beauty just shines, and it makes me so happy to women being comfortable in their skin in the face of the anorexicly-thin pushing media.
And those Pro-Age line they’ve been advertising? I’m 21 and I want to buy some to support their fabulous campaign for “Real Beauty”. It’s models like that who make me proud to be a woman, not those standard sticks you see everywhere else.
On April 18, 2007 at 5:29 pm K.L. said...
My DD8 (almost 9) is amazingly immune to peer pressure. She fits in well with the other kids and I have gotten no concerns from the teacher about her being teased. What is interesting is that she is deaf. She has a cochlear implant that gives her a great amount of hearing, but overhearing other conversations is difficult. You need to be talking TO her for her to hear it. I think that disconnect is what has helped her to form her self image without as much outside influence.
On April 18, 2007 at 5:53 pm Lara said...
Great ad. Great idea. Love to be able to support the product. But while they test on animals, I won’t buy.
On April 18, 2007 at 5:53 pm Jenny said...
KL, that’s interesting because I would have guessed it was the visuals that were the most dangerous influences in our culture. I never thought about the things people hear.
On April 18, 2007 at 5:57 pm downundergal said...
Yes, yes, yes to Body Shop. I was living in the UK when those supermodel ads came out. Theres nothing like rolling into a station on the underground and seeing huge posters telling everyone that most women dont look like supermodels – and thats normal!
Anita Roddick is an amazing woman. Read her autobiography a few years back and its full of inspriational stuff about ethical business. Her website is fab too http://www.anitaroddick.com. I buy a lot of Body Shop stuff because of her asnd always try to chose the Fair Trade option.
Actually she could be a Dove pro age model – she looks like a real woman.
On April 18, 2007 at 6:01 pm K.L. said...
I’m not sure, but I think it was Helen Keller who said that she missed her hearing more than sight because the hearing connected her to people, but the sight just connected her to places. Or something like that. You can see a lot of negative stuff on TV, but it sinks in when you hear it on the playground. At least that is the theory I’m going with.
On April 18, 2007 at 6:03 pm Cary said...
I love the Dove ads. I want to be these women – confident in my own skin. Not afraid of age, not afraid of some self-imposed vision of what you “should” look like.
I have a secret (well, not so much anymore) passion for product. If you have a skin cream with Calendula extract and Egg Protein that promised to reduce redness and aid skin elasticity, I am so buying your product. (Our Bath & Body Works shop just upgraded. Now, in addition to carrying their own products, they also carry the high end stuff like Murad, Patricia Wexler, and my current favorite C.O. Bigelow. You should see my receipts.)
But it has always been more about just trying to be the best “me” than fighting aging. I want to feel good about myself, not self-concious about a giant zit on my forehead. Life is enough of a struggle without worrying that your T-Zone is flashing a neon light saying, “SHE ATE PIZZA LAST NIGHT”.
Its only been in the last month or so that I’ve finally been able to shed 30+ years of baggage to say, “I am beautiful”.
Okay, obviously, I’m not fully there yet, ‘cuz I retyped that last line about 3 different ways.
On April 18, 2007 at 6:08 pm Rachel said...
I live in Ottawa, Canada, and we’ve seen those ads on TV here. I wonder why the US seems to be so narrow-minded. Or is it taboo to show some skin? Or to show “naked old women”? Come on. Anyways, I love these ads. I’m 22 yrs old and these ads make me feel good about myself.
On April 18, 2007 at 6:37 pm Jenny said...
Well, the entire nation went into cardiac arrest over a nipple, so I suppose even discreet full body stuff is beyond the pale.
We’re a little strange about sex down here.
Which reminds me of my favorite travel ad:
Brazil: It’s different down there.
It was all over NYC the last time I was there and I’ve seen it in airports, so it must be a Delta ad. Cracks me up every time.
On April 18, 2007 at 6:42 pm Becky said...
I’m skeptical about the “what we couldn’t show you on TV” claim. I’ve seen commercials that show a similar amount of skin. It’s just 20 year old skin instead of 50 year old skin. Look at all the buzz this commercial has created. People are chatting about it and forwarding it to their friends. You can’t pay for that kind of advertising. I’m not saying that the message of the ad isn’t great. We need more messages about confidence and feeling good about yourself no matter what. But I think this was very carefully calculated to attract more attention than it would have if it were played on TV.
On April 18, 2007 at 6:44 pm Sheryl said...
We Canadians are pretty liberal about our nudity. Odd considering how likely most of us are to freeze our asses off in the winter. We’re an odd bunch. Part of our charm I suppose.
I think Dove is onto something spectacular.
On April 18, 2007 at 6:52 pm K.L. said...
I still think it makes no sense that showing graphic violence on tv is ok, but nudity is called pornography, and banned.
On April 18, 2007 at 7:06 pm micki said...
Office Wench Cherry on April 18th, 2007 said:
“There’s a huge difference between wanting to be the best looking you you can be and wanting to look like someone else. There’s nothing wrong with taking the steps you feel are needed to look your best whether it’s losing weight or colouring your hair. The problem comes when a person feels she needs to look like someone else to be beautiful.”
Yes to that! I started henna-ing my hair about six months ago. My mom has fabulous white hair, but mine was just looking sad and washed out (at 38). I’ve been so pleased with it — I finally found the shade I had when I was younger. I will go white, but later. Hopefully when I can grow out a full head of white instead of some weird pink coral color.
I don’t think it’s a good idea to be judgemental about things women do for beauty. It costs time, money and often physical pain, and it’s not a light-hearted decision. I can understand back-lashing when one feels pressured to do it, but I think one should try not to be judgemental when others do it of their own free will.
(-: That said, I’m too much of a wimp to do any plastic surgery, so I’ll just have to embrace my wrinkles and lumps.
On April 18, 2007 at 7:37 pm Katy Cooper said...
I’m with Micki. I dye my hair, because white hair doesn’t go with my skin color as well as red-brown does . I lost weight for a lot of good reasons, but I’ve kept it off because I like the way I look.
I had a therapist who asked me if I knew I was beautiful. I started enumerating the things I like about myself physically–he shook his head and said something along the lines that my beauty isn’t physical. I try to see that, to accept that, because I think if I believe in my inner beauty, it will shine through my skin, making me beautiful on the outside too.
At the same time, I think each of us should have a handful of things she really likes about herself physically. She shouldn’t take a single one of them for granted, and she shouldn’t worry that anyone else does or doesn’t think they’re beautiful.
For example, my teeth are a little crooked and I love their crookedness. The world, as far as I can tell, admires straight teeth. Straight teeth are a wonderful thing–seriously crooked teeth are harder to keep clean, which makes them more susceptible to decay. Mine aren’t that crooked–I asked my dentist–but they’re not perfectly straight…and it’s their imperfection that I love, because it’s my imperfection.
On April 18, 2007 at 7:39 pm Wendy Roberts said...
I saw the ads in O Magazine and was very impressed. We need these commercials. We need MORE of these commercials. It’s time society stopped putting an age limit on beauty.
On April 18, 2007 at 7:55 pm Jenny said...
I love that, Katy. Three things I love about myself.
And boy, is that hard. I think I can get two . . .
WHY is it so hard? I’m not even thinking “These are beautiful,” just “Three things I love about my physical self.” I’ve always been more of a “great personality” kind of gal.
Okay, I love my legs. They’re long and strong.
And I love my height. I like being tall.
And then . . .
Huh. Nothing from the neck up. It’ll have to be my breasts. They’re fun (g).
On April 18, 2007 at 8:19 pm Conscripted Cherry said...
Three things about myself…
physicaly
–I have great breasts-one of those plus things for not having kids
–I have long monkey toes which makes it easy to pick things up from the floor
–I have short, fat, sausage fingers- which is a really weird thing to like, but they are the hands of my grandmother and my great-aunts and I love that I have their capable hands
other
–I am enthusiastic
–I’m an avid reader and thinker
–I have a wicked sense of humor
On April 18, 2007 at 8:57 pm AlienEeeter said...
I’m only 24…but that is the coolest ad I have ever seen.
On April 18, 2007 at 9:37 pm BCB said...
Jenny wrote:
Okay, I love my legs. They’re long and strong.
And I love my height. I like being tall.
And then . . .
Huh. Nothing from the neck up. It’ll have to be my breasts. They’re fun (g).
Good god, woman. I’m starting to think you get up every morning, look in the mirror, and say things along the lines of, “I think today I’ll publicly redefine the concept of awe-filled admiration.”
And then you go out and do it.
I tell you what, though. This whole thing about being unattractive from the neck up has just got to stop. Remarks like that do not even deserve the dignity of a response.
And no, this is not the “I am a great writer” thread. I do not have to respond in kind. Though I do love my long dancer’s legs.
On April 18, 2007 at 9:44 pm Jennifer Talty said...
Jenny – you make me smile. And while being tall is cool (I’m 5’7 which isn’t short) and I have dancer’s legs – the joke is my calves are not implants, they are the real deal and if one could move them to my breats, well, I wouldn’t need that boob job. Yeah, so I don’t think my breats are my nicest “physcial” aspect. But glad you like yours. That is good.
When I think about the things I like about myself, it’s not usually physical. I love that I’m not shy. I love that I’m passionate and I love that I am opinionated (sometimes).
The only thing I’ve every really been happy with physically are my eyes, but not so much lately. I really don’t like wrinkles, but I think I have pretty eyes. For the record, my eyes are blue, but they change color and sometimes look a bit green. I think that is cool. Otherwise, I can find fault in everything about my body. I’ve had three kids, so even the tiny boobs sag. I have stretch marks above my belly button and well, the muscles aren’t what they are used to be. But, with that said, I can look in the mirror and say, “At forty, you ain’t bad.”
On April 18, 2007 at 9:57 pm Jenny said...
See, this is what I mean. I don’t know how many body parts there are–or who gets to define body parts–but I had to really think hard to find three. And it was hard as hell not to equivocate.
The Great Writer Thread BCB refers to is over on the Cherry Forums in the writer’s section. You can only post one thing there–I’m a great writer–and although you can say other things in the post, you can’t equivocate. You can’t say “I’m going to be a great writer,” or “I’m an okay writer,” or “I really admire all of you for saying you’re great writers but I can’t do that,” because we’ll take down your post. You have to go on there and SAY IT. And the terror and panic that causes is extreme, and the relief and joy that follow are immense. The damn thread makes me cry every time I read it.
Posting in a public place that you like three things about your physical self is an even bigger leap. And I’m trying to think why. I know the bar set by the media is ridiculous, but we’re not showing pictures of anybody here. Is it because we believe that somebody will rush in here and say, “Crusie, your legs aren’t that great?” Is it because we think God’s gonna get us if we brag about our faces and bodies? Is it because it’s not lady-like to praise ourselves physically? Or is it really that we loathe ourselves so much that the majority of us honestly cannot find three things on our bodies that we like. Because that’s scary.
And I say that having had a helluva time coming up with my three. I think maybe Dove got here just in time.
On April 18, 2007 at 10:20 pm Sheryl said...
I like my hair.
I like my eyes
I like my hands.
I love my enthusiasm, even though that’s the one thing that invariably gets me in trouble. I am neither dull nor boring.
On April 18, 2007 at 10:49 pm Office Wench Cherry said...
My grandmother, currently playing poker in Heaven, was a wonderfully strong woman who lived through the death of both her parents, caring for her dying mother-in-law, her sister’s polio – she had to care for her while she recovered – the death of one adult child and the loss of her husband at 88 was one of the most beautiful women I’ve ever known.
She was also the most superstitious.
She firmly believed that you didn’t brag about something or God would take it away from you. She believed the polio damaging her sister’s legs was because everyone said Rose had nice legs.
My dad’s family didn’t believe in praising kids because it would make them conceited.
About a year ago in the middle of one of those gut wrenching mother/daughter talks, Mom told me I was just like my grandma – neither one of us knew how special, how beautiful, we are.
Gee, I wonder why.
Three things I love about myself physically. I love my silver and brown hair, the silver shines when the light hits it. I love my hands. I have great eyebrows. It sounds silly but whenever I’ve had them waxed/plucked I just don’t look like myself. I saw a photo once of my great-great aunt Elizabeth and I have eyebrows like she does.
On April 18, 2007 at 10:53 pm Reb said...
It’s a good thing this thread’s pretty anonymous, because I don’t think I could bring myself to say this in public. Why are three positives so hard, when I could list the things I don’t like so easily? Ouch.
I like my eyes.
I like my skin colour – a nice tanned olive.
I like that I look younger than I am. I didn’t always like that, but now that I’m nearly 40 I do.
On April 18, 2007 at 11:08 pm Erica said...
I have a friend who is in her mid 70s – she is not conventionally pretty or skinny. She is tall and solidly built. And if I look like her when I get to my 70s, I will be ecstatic – because she shines. She is gorgeous.
I think she is quite possibly the most beautiful woman I have ever seen (sounds cheesy, but it’s true).
Thankyou so much Jenny for sharing this!
I’m off to read the great writer thread – and you never know, if I’m feeling particularly brave I may even post! (g)
On April 18, 2007 at 11:18 pm Jenny said...
The “I am a great writer” thread is here. You may have to register first–we like to know who’s reading stuff there since it’s about works in progress–but no salesmen will call or newletters arrive.
It is hard, isn’t it? For some reason, though, it’s easier after you watch that commercial.
On April 18, 2007 at 11:29 pm Jennifer Talty said...
Jenny wrote: “And I’m trying to think why. I know the bar set by the media is ridiculous, but we’re not showing pictures of anybody here. Is it because we believe that somebody will rush in here and say, “Crusie, your legs aren’t that great?” Is it because we think God’s gonna get us if we brag about our faces and bodies? Is it because it’s not lady-like to praise ourselves physically? Or is it really that we loathe ourselves so much that the majority of us honestly cannot find three things on our bodies that we like. Because that’s scary.”
First off – Crusie, your legs are great. I forget what conference it was, but you had on this great suit, and it showed off your great legs.
Interesting bunch of questions you tossed out there. And I think we all have our own reasons why this is so hard. No one likes to be around someone who is constantly bragging about themselves and wonderful their body is. It makes them look as if they are better than the rest of us because the have 6 pack abs, perfect legs, no stretch marks, no wrinkles and damn perky boobs. Or bragging about other things like cars, houses, jobs, kids, whatever. So when we go to give ourselves a compliment, we tend to down play it because we don’t want to be that person. Or at least I don’t want to be that person.
I can honeslty say the issues I have with my body stem from years of thinking that I am supposed to be one way, and not the way I am. It’s hard for me to look at my body and not see the flaws. I’m conditioned that way and that is a hard wire that is near impossible to change. Hey, I’ve changed the way I veiw myself as a person and that took years of therapy, so one thing at a time. At least I can list of a whole bunch of shit that I like about me, the person, and that reality is so much more important to me anyway.
You know, when meeting people, we “see” them for their physical attributes. We might not find them the most attractive at first, but sometimes you get to know them and they become beautiful because their personalities are just that, beautiful. Or, the reverse is true. You meet someone who you think is the hottest person in the world, but get to know them and find that the inside person just doesn’t cut the mustard. Not so hot anymore.
Or maybe that is just me and the fact that it’s late.
I guess what I’m trying to say is that I really believe it is what is on the inside that matters. Not the outside.
On April 18, 2007 at 11:53 pm Mary the CB said...
A year or so ago, the magazine Marie Claire did an article/series of ads featuring a size 14 woman in a bikini. The ads had one of two headings.
One showed the woman wearing her bikini, and beneath the picture the heading “Do you think I look fat?”
The other ad showed the woman wearing her bikini and beneath the picture the heading “Do you think I look sexy?”
People were polled on their responses to this ad.
One woman, two messages
http://magazines.ivillage.com/marieclaire/mind/health/articles/0,,434735_620890,00.html
On April 19, 2007 at 12:00 am Jenny said...
I do, too, Jen.
But I believe that what we feel about our outsides colors how we feel inside. And the way we feel about ourselves permeates everything we do, from the way we walk and talk to the way we fight for ourselves. Not the way we fight for ideas or for other people, we can do that no problem, for ourselves.
I just went back and read all seventeen pages of that “I’m a Great Writer” thread. And it was wonderful seeing how many people who were resistant, just couldn’t do it in the first couple pages were tossing it off with joy later on.
And I also realized that what I did up there was not the Great Writer Thread; the analogy would be “I’m a writer.” I didn’t say, “I love my legs, sometimes after a shower I just look at them in the mirror because they’re so damn long and strong,” I said, “I like my legs.” I didn’t say I love being tall because because it makes me feel feel powerful, so that when I stretch out my arms I can embrace the whole world, I said, “I like being tall.” And then we get to my breasts and I can’t say anything here because it’s TMI, but I freaking love my breasts.
Now that’s I’m A Great Writer for Bodies. Nobody else has to do it, I’m not trying to start a new thread here. But you know what? I’m incredibly cheerful about my body right now, after loathing it for fifty years.
After you love the women in that Dove commercial, love yourself. It sure as hell beats loathing yourself.
On April 19, 2007 at 12:10 am Jenny said...
Mary, that’s wonderful, thank you.
“Along with the billboards, we ran Nicole’s “fat” and “sexy” messages (separately) in newspapers and online to get a sense of what people across the country thought. The result? No matter what Nicole “thought,” the majority of people agreed.”
So just to make this clear, I think I’m incredibly hot. No, seriously, I really do. Pass it on.
On April 19, 2007 at 12:31 am BCB said...
Ok, fine then. Geez. Never argue with a woman who knows her way around a dictionary and a psych textbook.
Three things:
As I already mentioned, I love my long dancer’s legs. I love how their strength and coordination allow me to walk with confidence and arrogance no matter where I am or where I’m going. Might I just mention that some body images are formed during adolescence and that, in my mind, my legs will forever be as they were at age 17 when I was on the danceline and could do a high kick that touched my forehead. Ahem.
When I met Margaret last fall (who is, by the way, one of YOUR lurkers, Jenny) she told me my hands are graceful. Or elegant. Something. And she was right. I love my slim, long-fingered, graceful, elegant, capable hands.
At some time in the not too distant past, I would have said I love my hair. Everyone who has ever cut my hair has exclaimed over how thick and luxurious it is and how I have enough of it for three people. But now I color it and, even though it is still gorgeous, admiration of it seems less true.
I could say I love the mischievous sparkle in my eyes when I’m laughing and up to no good, but I’m not sure that is a physical trait.
So for number three I will say that I love my cheekbones. I have great cheekbones, in spite of the pounds that have accumulated over the years. They are a part of my Nordic heritage and they give definition to an otherwise ordinary face.
Jenny, I hate to contradict you, but doing this was so much easier and less traumatic than posting on the Great Writer Thread. It didn’t even make me cry, and that is a litmus test right there. Because this stuff just doesn’t matter. Not to me.
Physical traits are not who I am or what I want to be known for. They are superficial. If any of you want to learn what a person, what a writer, is made of, go over and read that thread Jenny has been talking about. Go listen to what is important and significant and so damned difficult. Go listen to what we are willing to sacrifice so much of in order to be what we are. That matters. This is just fluff.
Even so, I want you all to know that I am hot and sexy and desirable. And that has nothing to do with how I look. You don’t believe me? Come over here and let me whisper in your ear. I know so many words, and I know how to use them.
On April 19, 2007 at 12:32 am Conscripted Cherry said...
Great article Mary
Jenny- you are hot, no- you are HOT!! But you know what? I’m HOT!! too dang it. And with this conversation in mind I think tomorrow’s work outfit is going to switch from jeans and baggy polo to tailored slacks and a fitted blouse.
On April 19, 2007 at 12:54 am Theresa said...
Ahem. Here goes.
I love my eyes. My deep blue, so blue that once a young latino lad at a takeout counter asked me if they were real, did I wear contacts, blue eyes. They are framed with my long lashes and when I wear mascara, I feel like a vamp.
I love the one dimple that I have, so that I can smirk, and grin lopsidedly, and that makes me look cheery and happy when I smile.
I love my curves. I didn’t always. But then I started taking bellydance classes, and learned to move my generous curves, and they started to feel sexy and something to show off rather than hide. Feminine and womanly and zaftig (one of my favorite words after Bet Me), those are my curves.
I really should stand in front of the mirror and say that every single day, morning and night.
On April 19, 2007 at 3:11 am micki said...
Woo-hoo! I love seeing all these empowered women here!
I love my hair. I love the graceful curve of my eyebrows. I love my inner ankles.
I think the trick is to imagine your body as if it were someone else’s. You’d be no where near as critical. It’s funny, but when I look in the mirror, what pops out is maybe my white roots. And it’s not limited to women. When my husband looks in the mirror, the first thing he sees is maybe a nosehair. Or a wrinkle. Poor baby. When I or other women tell him how cute he is, he says, “Flatterers!”
Poor guys in general. You know, I think I just realized, when was the last time you saw a 40-year-old naked man in an advertisement?
On April 19, 2007 at 3:16 am downundergal said...
This is hard. I will want to write ‘but’ after each one. I won’t, I promise but I’m going to want to very badly.
I love my hair. I know it’s gorgeous. It’s thick and long and I know when its newly washed and blow dried that people comment and admire it. It’s my best feature.
I too have great breasts. They’re a good size and when I’m in a snug fitting t-shirt men defintiely admire them. And my husband is obsessed with them but I think thats just a mummy-didn’t-breast-feed-me thing
I have nice skin (not my face skin, sorry, had to clarify that). Its olive and soft and my sister (who is serioulsy gorgeous) and my daughter love to just rub it and sigh.
Oh god – that was hard. I am bursting with buts. I think I’m almost hyperventilating on buts. Anyone got a paper bag?
On April 19, 2007 at 5:10 am Ingrid said...
I loved that Marie Claire experiment! The most important revelation came at the end: the photograph was not retouched at all.
Last month there was a documentary here on Dutch television, the title of which roughly translates to ‘Limited shelf life’. The maker, Sunny Bergman, is a 34 year old woman and she explores the question why a woman’s ‘shelf life’ is limited to about 35.
She interviewed a photographer who said that every professional photograph is routinely photoshopped to make the model in it look slimmer and more beautiful than she does in reality. And then it’s demonstrated: Ms Bergman is professionally made up and photographed, and she says she thinks it looks really good. And then the image is photoshopped and she says the first one looks really rough now. You can see the two photographs on the website below.
So what we’re comparing ourselves to doesn’t even exist. The Body Shop slogan said that there are 3 billion women who don’t look like supermodels, and only 8 who do, well even those 8 don’t really look like that.
But the worst part is when Ms Bergman visits a cosmetic surgeon in LA who specialises in in cosmetic surgery on the vagina. There’s a link on the site to a youtube clip of her lying in the stirrups while filming the surgeon. All the English in the documentary is subtitled, so you can listen to him speak. Apparently nowadays women worry that their vaginas don’t look like they do in the photoshopped photographs in Playboy, so they have their labia trimmed to be ‘normal’.
The most disturbing part is the interview with a pretty girl of at most 16 with her mother sitting beside her, who has been told by the surgeon she is a candidate for this operation. They are obviously very embarrassed to be talking about this to a stranger, but the surgeon has promised them a reduction in the price of the operation if they will do the interview. And you want to shout at the mother: You stupid woman! Why don’t you protect your daughter from these stupid ideas? But she obviously believes them herself.
You can see the whole documentary on the site, but it’s 60 minutes and the voice over and most of the interviews are in Dutch. It’s just the ‘vaginaplasty’ bit, including the interview with the girl and her mother, that is in English with subtitles. The whole thing has caused a lot of discussion over here.
http://www.vpro.nl/programma/hollanddoc/afleveringen/33255664/
On April 19, 2007 at 5:20 am Ingrid said...
Three things I like about myself:
my hands, which are slender with long fingers;
my waist, which is still small compared to my hips, even though I’m fifty, past menopause and overweight;
my mouth;
and I’ll even throw in my long dark eyelashes for free!
On April 19, 2007 at 5:47 am Jennifer Talty said...
Jenny – I agree, I’m just not there yet, loving my body that is. I love who I am, who I have become and I feel very strongly about how far I have come as a person. I have come a long way baby, and I can scream that from the rooftops. For me, this is tangable. Kind of like writing. I can look back to what I was writing four years ago and go, Damn, I am a great writer. I can look back at who I was 20 years ago and see that pile of beat up mush that couldn’t even walk into a room without shaking uncontrollably and thinking, God, the world hates me I’m such a bad person. Today, even if someone hates me, I know I’m a good person. A deserving person. A worthy person.
Do I believe I’m hot? Good God, no. And I hate my breasts. I mean, I really hate my breasts. And it has less to do with the fact they are small and more to do with the fact that they are small and sag. Between going braless for years because the world told me I didn’t need one, and breast feeding three babies, well even the small ones go south. Then I was tramatized by a plastic surgeon who told me that if he did the “lift” without putting in even small implants, I’d be “bumps with nipples.” I kid you not. Sheesh the things I tell you people. But hey, it’s going in a book somewhere. Even I can find the humor in that.
I don’t agree with BCB that doing this is less tramic either. Talking about my body and what I like and don’t, isn’t hard for me. My body is what it is. I sort of have accepted that. I don’t like many aspects of it and I exersize and do other stuff to try and change it, but the stretch marks are not going to go away.
Saying I’m a great writer is a motivating thing for me. Helps me push past doubts and really dig into what I am doing. It makes me continue on a road that sometimes is less than one step at a time. Writing is hard. Getting published, staying published and moving up in publishing is hard and I don’t necessarily have control over that. I have control over my writing. I have control over how I feel about my writing.
When I feel good about who I am, I worry less about what I look like. Then again, I never leave my house without make-up. I want to look good on the outside too. I do believe that if I look put together, maybe people will see me as put together. But it’s my inside that dictacts how I “comfortable” I feel with the outside.
I guess what I’m trying to say is that I don’t love my body. But I don’t loathe it either.
I do however Love who I am.
Now, about this vagina thing? OMG! That just freaks me out.
On April 19, 2007 at 6:46 am Jennifer Talty said...
Okay, so I got in the shower and started thinking.
I should say that I grew up in an envirnment that told me looking good on the outside should be a number one goal in life. What people see of the outside you will determine what they think if you. How you dress and look is an indicator of what you think of yourself. I was constantly told that if you don’t take the time to take care of yourself (make yourself thin and pretty by society standards) then people will see this and not like you.
Yeah, I know, that’s not right. I think it’s backwards.
I guess my issue is turning around my own thinking. And while I will always be a bit vain and think it’s important to always look “nice” and “put together” I’m trying not to let it control my inner me like it did my youth because that totally messed with my headspace.
I make no sense whatsoever. I think I have contradicted myself a half a dozen times just this morning.
And the vagina thing, still totally freaks me out. I could have gone my whole life and never heard that and would have been much happier. That distrubed me on a level I can’t even discribe.
On April 19, 2007 at 7:13 am Ingrid said...
Jennifer, I apologise for being the messenger. But it’s there and these things tend to spread.
If I were the mother of daughters I would make sure to lay some groundwork while I still had some influence over them. And if I were the mother of sons, well, I suppose I would have to make sure they got their hands on some vintage porn. Come to think of it, that would be a good idea for the daughters too.
On April 19, 2007 at 7:25 am Jennifer Talty said...
Ingrid – No appologizes necessary. I’m sure I would have learned about it somewhere and it still would have had the same effect on me regardless. It was a WTF? You have got to be kidding me? Kind of moment.
I have a daughter and two sons. I constantly worry about self-esteem issues and the messages I’m sending my children. Like the fact I hate my breasts. Not necessarily a good message to send my daughter, or my sons. Fine line here. I really don’t care what you all think about my breasts, only me. Well, I care about what my husband thinks about my breasts, which is why I have yet to have the lift (with or without the implants) because he enjoys them just fine.
Anyway, no need to appologize to me.
On April 19, 2007 at 7:29 am Sheryl said...
JenT – I think it all makes perfect sense. It took years for you to love yourself. And because that’s what’s most important, loving you with all your truths, that’s what you worked on the longest.
This whole thread is an eerie echo of a conversation I had in the car during a long drive on the weekend. I also think it ties in beautifully with the previous three posts. Aren’t they all about empowerment?
I’d like to see an ad campaign for men similar to Dove.
On April 19, 2007 at 8:05 am Andi said...
First – I love the Dove ads, I love India.Arie, and sure, I’d love to go to Brazil, it is different down there.
About loving my physical vessel, well, I do love the whole. In the words of the great Nora Ephron, spoken through Harry, paraphrased – I am in the universal sense attractive. I’m short, thin, flat-chested, but well proportioned, the best part of me is I have a good face. Clear eyes, straight nose, full lips, dainty ears, high almost sharp cheekbones. So those are good things, and I am vain in a, “aw, I’m not vain” way. I am not enjoying getting older. Well, that is not entirely true, I’m not enjoying seeing age on my face so much.
I am finally really figuring out who I am, or at least trying to, and seeing those crinkles around my eyes and mouth, especially when I laugh, kind of torques me.
I love the Dove campaign, because, aging is such a conundrum. No one really likes it, the alternative is unacceptable, but seeing the beauty of 50+ takes some of the uuurrrrgh out of aging.
I have a friend, who I am sure thinks I’m some sort of touchy-feely freak, because after one too many margaritas I waxed on about the innate beauty of all human beings. The miracle of skin over muscle and bone, facial structure, utility and beauty of arms and legs, and more drunken blah, blah, blah. But I truly meant every word. Skin color, hair texture, height, weight, and all their variations fascinate me.
And, I’m all for cosmetic surgery. If you want it. Accept who you are, in all your weakness, and then if you want, go get a fixer upper. Your choice! And I’m always for choice. I’ll also try not to judge, which thankfully is not a physical attribute, because if it were, holy cow, I’d have to wear a bag over my head. But I’m working on it.
On April 19, 2007 at 8:12 am Deb said...
First, I wasn’t aware that when I reached the age of empowerment, pro-age, what ever label you apply, I would need to change deodorant. Who knew? 52 here.
I adore who I am right now. I’m doing things that in the past I only wished I could do. I am so damn proud of having the courage to try, and rejoice that it doesn’t make a damn bit of difference whether I succeed by any one else’s standards or not, I have accomplished something big just for me. And ok, I wouldn’t mind being better at it than I am, but I’m proud of what I’ve accomplished. The physical self, well hell yeah, I wouldn’t mind looking like (insert your idea of beautiful here), but I am so much more than any part of my anatomy. I’ll be damned if I let anyone’s opinion of who or what I am matter more than what I see in myself.
and now, I’m going back to gazing at the Houston FD calendar images I got in email, absolutely beautiful guys. Yes, I can be shallow, your point?
On April 19, 2007 at 8:50 am McB said...
Three things … geez
Okay, I like my legs too. They are not long, as those of you who have met me are aware (ahem). But what there is of them is prime, baby! Strong and straight.
I like my breasts. God knows I’ve got ‘em and Mom brought me up to believe I should flaunt ‘em not be ashamed.
I like my hands. They are petite, like the rest of me, but nicely shaped with strong nails.
If dyeing your hair or having an eye tuck or whatever helps the outer you to look like the inner you feels, go for it. Nothing wrong with making the best of what you have.
On April 19, 2007 at 9:00 am JulieB said...
Having just turned old enough to qualify for the pro-age casting call a couple of years ago, I’ll start with the physical likes.
I like my breasts, after years of worrying that they were too small. I too have nursed three children, and although they are definately different now, I think feeding the kids gave me such a sense of power and wonder about them that I’d never consider implants. And, they are lopsided. Not happy about that, per se, I would like them to be at least balanced, but I just can’t fathom having something hard and plastic-y so close to my heart.
I like my legs. I always have. They have been, most of my life, very strong. And when they weren’t, it was a real, tangible wake up call regarding my health.
When I was younger, I worried about my large bottom. Now I only buy pants that make it look really nice, and I like my bottom.
I love my eyes. When I was little, my dad asked me what a good boyfriend would look at first, if he was interested in a girl. I had no idea. Dad told me that a good boyfriend would look at her eyes first, and see how beautiful she was.
I realized that I read the I am a great writer, and instead of posting, I just delayed. Thanks for mentioning that today. I think I need to lay-claim to myself here.
Finally, I color my hair. I used to be afraid to change my hair, change my style in case I didn’t like it. When I was in college, a friend got her hair cut dramatically short. When I asked her if she wasn’t afraid to change it, she said ‘Why? It will always grow back if I don’t like it. Why not have fun?” I realized I’d had the wrong attitude all my (short)-life. So, for the second half of my life I’ve embraced that and just gone ahead and tried new colors and cuts. For me, it’s all about having fun with it. That’s all.
On April 19, 2007 at 10:42 am GatorPerson said...
Jenny, above the neck? You should love your eyelids. You paid for them.
I like that I’m not any fatter than I am.
I like that I don’t have as many wrinkles as most people my age.
I like that, now that I’m a teensy bit too fat, that my father’s dimples show on my face when I grin.
Info you might want that’s counter-culture: My gyn said I shouldn’t try to lose weight. The extra fat gives a bit of estrogen that protects against stuff. Also the extra weight carried around all the time helps prevent osteoporosis for small-boned women.
Info you might NOT want: I crowed that at least my boobies would never sag, being an A on a good day. Gravity does not ignore small boobies.
On April 19, 2007 at 10:49 am Chelle said...
Jenny said, “Is it because we believe that somebody will rush in here and say, “Crusie, your legs aren’t that great?” Is it because we think God’s gonna get us if we brag about our faces and bodies? Is it because it’s not lady-like to praise ourselves physically? Or is it really that we loathe ourselves so much that the majority of us honestly cannot find three things on our bodies that we like. Because that’s scary.”
Growing up as a good Catholic girl, I’d have to say yes to all the above.
However, now, I’d say, He did it, so I’m thinking he must have liked me as I was when I came off the assembly line. (So to speak.) Therefore, why shouldn’t I like what I’ve got and say it? Why should I think he’ll smite me for saying I like, let’s be bold, I LOVE how I look? I believe in God, so I’m his gift to me and my Momma always told me I’m supposed to say thank you for gifts.
Here goes:
1. I like my feet. I’m small and when I paint my toe nails I think they’re the prettiest thing on me.
2. I like my smile. I have one of those smiles that invites other’s to smile and laugh with me. What a gift!
3. I like my skin. I have fabulous skin. Thank goodness I learned about sunscreen in the 80s, or it would be bad, but at 42 I’m loving that I still have a pretty, clear, even skin tone.
Wow, Jenny’s right. That third one was really hard to come up with!
Cheers to all you Fabulous Cherries out there. We Rock.
On April 19, 2007 at 11:21 am Cary said...
Okay, again, Jenny, you can send your bill for the therapy session to United Behavioral Health, Indianapolis, IN.
What physical things do I love about myself?
My skin. After all those teen years fighting acne, my skin finally settled down. And guess what? That oily skin and extra fat keeps you from aging prematurely. I’m well past the age where one legally needs to check ID, but I’ve been carded twice in the last month (once for a lottery ticket).
My hair. It used to be thicker, genetics are kicking me in the a**, but it is still thick and soft and does what I want it to (mostly).
My breasts. They may be lopsided (I can’t believe I just admitted that in a public forum) but they’re mine and they’re FABULOUS.
And now, a bolt of lightning will come down out of the sky, aiming just for me. Or maybe just my Mother.
On April 19, 2007 at 11:23 am Lori said...
I read this all before I went to bed last night. Then again when I got up this morning. This whole time I’ve been thinking about what I need to say here, and I’m still not sure exactly. But I know I need to say something, if only just for myself.
I truly believe I have a very healthy concept of who I am. I know myself pretty well inside and out, and I’ve accepted most of it simply as who I am. There are things I love about myself inside and out, but what I love about myself inside always effects what I see and love about myself on the outside. Always.
I love my deep, dark brown eyes. I love the way they tilt, but only very slightly at the ends. One just a bit more than the other. But mostly I love the way they show my emotion. They tell people about me. I love when they go squinty and small when I’m having a good laugh. I love the way they sliver when I’m being mischievous.
I love all my scars. I love the way they feel when I rub them, each one a different texture and shape. But mostly I love the rush of memories that never fails to come when I see or feel their outlines on my skin. I love how they make me feel like I’ve lived without fear of pain. I love that I am the only person who will ever have that scar or that memory.
I love my shoulders. I love that they are sturdy, but still soft and round. But mostly I love that my mother taught me how to hold them straight and square. I love how they translate my confidence and pride. I love feelings of peace and comfort I get when I relax them into the couch or bed at the end of a long day.
Does any of that mean I don’t have things I want to change? Of course not. There are many things I desire to change about myself. Most of them would be changes towards making me a healthier, stronger, and better person, but some are simply changes I’d like just for me. A little less cheek (in all four locations). A lot more grace. A completely different singing voice.
But all of this…what I see as good or bad… is me.
On April 19, 2007 at 11:36 am Jenny said...
Chelle, I’m trying to picture your mother’s face if she heard herself being called an assembly line. Good thing she’s as cheerful as you are.
One thing that strikes me as I read all of these posts, including mine, is that there’s a difference between “I love this part of myself because it looks good to other people” and “I love this part of myself because I love it, screw what other people think.” (Not that there’s anything wrong with either one of them; any sentence that starts out “I love this part of myself” is good with me.)
At the risk of sounding REALLY off the wall here, it took me a long time to make friends with my body and I’m not really there yet. I still treat it as mostly transportation for my mind. I keep feeding it so I can get from my bed to my computer, but in the mind/body split, I’m best friends with my mind, but don’t have much connection to my body. And I think that makes it easier to criticize, because it’s the thing that I see in the mirror and worry about other people seeing. Instead of taking time to do what Andi does, think of the miracle of the machine that is me, I shove it around and think of it as the Other. I’m emotionally abusing my body, and since my body is me, as much as my mind, I’m emotionally abusing myself.
And I’m sure there are people who are the other way around, too, who are comfortable within their bodies, love their physicality, think of themselves as bodies, but think of their minds, their thoughts, as sub-par, an Other that people see and judge that keeps letting them down because it won’t measure up.
The key is to love the twins, of course, mind and body. Maybe that’s why some people have no problem posting here and shake when they post on the “I Am A Great Writer” thread, and some people can post there with much less trouble but can’t post here at all.
I’m guessing of course. I was an art major as an undergrad and an English major as a grad student. Do not put your psyche in my hands, I’ll paint it red and write a story about it.
On April 19, 2007 at 11:38 am K.L. said...
Wow. Ok. Where to start. I have always felt good about myself. Who I am. I liked how I looked when I was younger. I just never thought about liking the changes time and gravity have brought. I spend so much time wanting to change things back that I just haven’t looked at the damage that did.
3 things.
I like my hands. They are petite, and I can see a family quirk in the pinky that has gone back generations. and I see it in my children.
I like my feet, and my monkey toes.
I like my hair. It is not thick, or what the world defines as pretty. But it is long and silky, and I absolutely love the feel of it between my fingers.
Whew. That was more work than it should have been.
On April 19, 2007 at 11:43 am Victoria said...
Ingrid,
The before and after photoshopped photos are mostly color correction. They photographed her in sucky light — possibly overhead flourescents. It shows in her chest, necklace, and clothes. The rest is what I call the “Kabuki Effect.” Dramatic color applied to the face in specific shapes and sculptural lines with shadows added to the hair. It’s graphic art applied to a facial format. All in all, I preferred the first photo, even if the lighting did make her look like a three day old corpse.
Theresa,
Dove does more than the bar your talking about. I have the same kind of skin you do and love Dove’s exfoliating foaming scrub. They also have a variety of moisturizers that range from light (for sensitive skin) to rich. I found the sensitive skin moisturizer works great for all parts of my combo skin.
On April 19, 2007 at 12:08 pm Stressed-Out Cherry said...
Jenny said, “Do not put your psyche in my hands, I’ll paint it red and write a story about it.”
I wouldn’t have a problem with that.
I guess I’ll be the weird one and say I have no problem thinking of three things. I love my eyes. I love my hands, my breast are the bomb that’s why I would never get a tatoo on them, why mar their beauty. I have fabulous hips, and I find great amusement that I have one foot fatter than the other.
Now I can see and admire all that, but if someone else tells this I narrow my eyes grip my heart, wallet, and sanity because they must be after something. I can see my beauty and quirks and love them but I can’t see how anyone else can. I cry when I get compliments. As we say at my rehab center, that’s a treatment issue.
One thing I do live by is if you are unhappy about your weight, figure, face, hair, crappy personality etc. You are going to have to…
Love it, or lose it.
On April 19, 2007 at 12:10 pm Chelle said...
LOL, she’d think it was funny.
This IS the woman who told me in the middle of the literacy signing at National last year that she gave me romance novels when I was a teenager so I’d know sex could be fun.
She’s the coolest mom ever.
On April 19, 2007 at 12:21 pm Jenny said...
“As we say at my rehab center, that’s a treatment issue.”
What’s a treatment issue, please?
On April 19, 2007 at 12:54 pm Stressed-Out Cherry said...
Jenny said, “What’s a treatment issue, please?”
It’s like the internal conflict. The thing the addict has to deal with in order to understand why they use so that they know how to prevent relasping i.e. using drugs/alchohol again. This can include spending money when they don’t have it to waste or spend, procrastinating or delaying taking care of responsibilites or not believing that other people can see your inner beauty.
The affect (or effect not sure the right one to use here) can build up stress, send them into depression, etc. that would make then want to use again.
It’s something that can’t be ignored it needs to be treated just like cancer to chemo, kidney failure to dialysis.(sp?)
On April 19, 2007 at 1:35 pm Marcia in OK said...
To paraphrase cause I can’t find the exact comment, Jenny commented earlier that she was surprised that the words people said about appearance seemed to be more damaging than the bombardment of media pics and such.
I read that and was surprised that Jenny was surprised, cause she’d commented so strongly on her last blog/comments that Emotional abuse was as damaging as physical abuse. Words are such a factor in emotionally abusive situations.
I routinely (3.5 times per year for the last 10 years) teach a Nurturing Parenting class that is 15 weeks long to families that are at risk for Child Abuse and Neglect. Throughout the 15 wks, we spend hours talking about and practicing skills to help build a child’s self-esteem. I’ve found that before I can reach the kids, I have to try and help the parents. We do many of the same things that have happened on this blog.
List 3 Positive charastics about yourself. List a positive thing you’ve done today – everyday for a week! list 3 things you like about your physical self.
Many people really struggle, especially the women. In most cases, the dad’s in my group have an easier time listing their positive physical characteristics, and the women almost always want to “clarify” their lists.
Jenny, once again, you’ve opened a discussion that is so important, and allowed us opportunity to expand it into our own lives.
THANKS JENNY!
On April 19, 2007 at 2:08 pm Office Wench Cherry said...
Jenny said: At the risk of sounding REALLY off the wall here, it took me a long time to make friends with my body and I’m not really there yet. I still treat it as mostly transportation for my mind. I keep feeding it so I can get from my bed to my computer, but in the mind/body split, I’m best friends with my mind, but don’t have much connection to my body. *Snip.*
Instead of taking time to do what Andi does, think of the miracle of the machine that is me, I shove it around and think of it as the Other. I’m emotionally abusing my body, and since my body is me, as much as my mind, I’m emotionally abusing myself.
It’s not off the wall at all, I know exactly what you mean about living in your head and not your body. I once gained *80* pounds and didn’t know it. Yep, that’s and eight and a zero and no decimal place in between. Of course I was drowning in stress from making one of, if not the, worst decisions of my life but no healthy, aware person gains 80 pounds and doesn’t notice. I knew I’d gained weight but if you asked me I’d have said 10 pounds, twenty tops.
I’m a horrible emotional eater and my body pays for that. I treated my body as the dumping ground for all the feelings I didn’t know how, or want, to deal with. I lived solely in my head. For all intents and purposes *I* stopped at my chin, my body was no more a part of me than my office chair is.
It’s taken a long time and a lot of work but I’m learning to make my body a part of me. Meeting my husband and getting married was a real sea change for me. Here was this person who thought I was gorgeous and funny and wanted to spend the rest of his life with me. I tried so hard that first year to drive him away it’s a wonder he stayed. I didn’t believe that someone – who wasn’t my mother – could look at me and see beautiful. Smart, yeah, I know I’m smart but beautiful? Buddy, you have got me confused with someone else.
I’m not there 100% but I’m learning that my body is a lot more honest with me than my mind. If it’s cold or hungry or sick my body tells me where as my mind plays all sorts of games. I’m incredibly lucky because my husband refuses to allow me to bad mouth by body or completely retreat into my head. He won’t tolerate it, I can’t say bad things about myself in front of him. If I do he makes me explain why I said it and he won’t take “It’s a bad hair day” for an answer. He’s the one who has made me dig through this cesspool of emotion and sort things out.
What has that done for my physically? I’ve stopped 95% of the emotional eating and lost 53.5 pounds since June. I’m happier too. My body is no longer the active enemy, we have a truce. Every day isn’t a struggle. I don’t feel so much a stranger in my own skin, we are more old friends getting to know each other again.
On April 19, 2007 at 2:23 pm roben said...
I don’t think much about body and physical attributes or lack therof in either myself or my friends. I do worry about abuse though. I don’t want to hit sixty overweight and compromising my health. I eat right for my skin, my hair, my nails, my gums, my joints, my eyesight and especially my brain and I kid myself that the occassional glass of red wine is good for my health.
I exercise every single day of the week. I’m old, (older than Jenny) I’m a large framed woman, I can pack on the pounds in the blink of an eye, but I take care of myself as much as I can because my body, when taken care of, allows me to do the things I love. I power walk, hike, jog, swim, and until recent years played tennis and skiied with enthusiasm. I think of my body like a car that I expect with proper care and maintenance will give me 100,000+ miles. If it needs a new paint job I get it (I dye my hair and buy nice clothes) if it needs new tires, I buy the best (shoes) if it needs any new parts it gets those two (like Jenny I had my eyes done some years ago and I’d do my neck now if I could afford it, but hey, it’s not major, just would be nice.)
The three things I like most about my physical body are, my thick easy to style hair, my dark brown eyes, my long tapered fingers. What I love most about my mind is the understanding that it has to be stimulated daily. I’ll never stop learning and I try not to shun the new and crave for the good old things of the past. I do crosswords, read, write, and discuss current events. I love a good debate and will sometimes take the opposing view just for the heck of it. Yeah I’m a bit of a stirrer. I love to dance and laugh and hang out with family and friends doing sweet nothing. (Or as we say downunder, “sweet bugger-all.” And that I think is what keeps me young at heart.
On April 19, 2007 at 2:35 pm Theresa said...
Thanks, Victoria, I’ll have to give that dove bar a try.
Yes, similar to what Jenny and Office Wench Cherry said, I was always (for the most part) happy with what’s inside my head. I was the smart one. My body on the other hand. To quote Jenny, Argh. It didn’t help that growing up I was a tomboy, and to top it off, I developed not-very subtle curves much earlier than everyone else. Felt rather like a freak, actually, and like I never knew how to be a girl and then later a woman.
For me, the change in my attitude started to happen when I started dancing. I never took dance when I was a girl, so I had no idea how empowering it could be. Belly dancing, for me, reconnected me to my body in a way I’d never experienced before. I was getting exercise, which made me feel good, and learning to move my curves in a way that just made me feel and see myself as a beautiful, sexy woman. Something I’d never really felt before.
I still have to work at feeling good about my body-self, but I’m so much happier about that part of myself than ever before.
On April 19, 2007 at 2:40 pm K.L. said...
I wonder if our (United States) prudish attitude about nudity is in any way connected with our general lack of happiness and comfort with our own (less than perfect) bodies?
On April 19, 2007 at 2:49 pm McB said...
Theresa – its interesting that we both had the same experience (getting our curves very early in life) and yet reacted differently. I give all the credit to my mom.
On April 19, 2007 at 3:42 pm Theresa said...
I love my mom and think she is an amazing woman, but we didn’t really talk much about bodies or sexuality. At least not that I remember.
On the other hand, there was a lot of focus on working hard, getting good grades. The value was put on our brains and our personalities. And I really credit my parents with a lot that I am today.
But…interesting. I never really thought about how focusing on our bodies growing up could be anything but negative. *smacking forehead* Hello, given what I wrote above and those commercials of Dove focusing on girls. So often the message is that it’s what’s on the inside not the outside that matters. Yes and No. Yes, looks shouldn’t be the basis for how our worth is judged by the world. But how we feel about our bodies is just as important as how we feel about our minds and hearts when it comes to self-worth.
Which pretty much reiterates much of what was already said, bringing me back full circle.
On April 19, 2007 at 3:54 pm ZaZa said...
Jenny said…
“But then I started to wonder if they were ringers. Because you really do not like them. And because you do not like them, you want to prove to them that women do want to see that.”
They didn’t need to use ringers. I’m sure there was no difficulty finding women who would say that, or worse. Probably censored some of the negative reactions.
On hair coloring – I have fairly dark hair. Because of a lucky genetic deal, I have maybe 5% gray, but it’s in one big streak starting at my right hairline and one smaller one a little back from my left. Someone on the Cherries list said their husband called that the “horns of power.” ;+))) Anyway, I’ve seen quite a few women with the same graying pattern who don’t color their hair. They look great, sophisitcated. They wear hand woven fabrics and carry one of a kind handbags. They are sooo not me. So, I color my hair to look more like me. I’ve been playing with my hair color since I was in my early teens. I like having different color hair occasionally. I figure it wouldn’t be colorable if I weren’t supposed to color it. Heh.
What I said on the other post about having that core of knowing I was smart and had value etc. is sort of true for the way I look, too. I’m also 5’9″ and way big boned. If I weighed what the charts had recommended when I was younger, I’d have been a walking skeleton. And, while everyone was telling me, “you’d be such a pretty girl if you weren’t so fat,” I was seeing that my skinny little friends boyfriends were ogling me behind their backs. Or one skinny friend’s boyfriend gave her the “we need to start seeing other people” speech and gave me a call. No, I never went for any of that, but every time some “well-meaning” woman would tell me, “you’d be so…” I’d just think of her boyfriend racing to the seat next to me at the party and let it roll on past.
All of this makes me think of Anna Nicole Smith. She was gorgeous before that TrimSpa thing, prettier, IMO, but everyone talked about her like she weighed a ton, as though she were gross and unattractive. She was HOT! But, clearly, she was never allowed to think that about herself, not really, so she became a caricature. So much about her life just makes me angry. I hate her family on her behalf, partly because I understand what that’s like.
Jenny, if it’s not too obnoxious of me, are you willing to post before and afer pics of your eyes? I’ve had allergies all my life, and the bags under my eyes could carry clothes for a week away from home. I’ve often wondered if it would be worth it to have my eyes done, although they should probably be the least of my worries. /;+)
On April 19, 2007 at 4:48 pm downundergal said...
Roben, having met you I think you missed out elegant. You are one elegant female. Softly spoken and gently glamorous.
On April 19, 2007 at 5:52 pm Jenny said...
Zaza, it’s not obnoxious at all, but I don’t have them. You might, though, if you have copies of the old HQs. The author photo in there is before I had them done. It probably says “Glamour Shots” or something. The one with the my hair short and my arms crossed in the blue suit with the turquoise backdrop is right afterwards.
On my surprise at verbal being so important: I was thinking from a societal/peer aspect. There aren’t any commercials that say, “You’re fat and ugly,” they just show pictures of impossible ideals. But of course I hadn’t thought about the people surrouneding us. So now I’m not surprised any more.
I just got back from the grocery where I bought so much Dove the checkout woman said, “You must really like this stuff.” I said, “Have you SEEN the commercial?”
On April 19, 2007 at 7:05 pm BCB said...
I think it is really interesting that so many of you seem to assume that by saying you love a physical part of yourself you are also saying you think it is beautiful. And that it has to be beautiful before you can love it. That is so wrong.
I love my legs and my hands and my cheekbones for what they are. I do not think any of them are necessarily beautiful. That wasn’t the question.
Many of you will not understand this and I really hesitate to say it here. But WTH. Someday I’ll learn to keep my mouth shut, but I guess it won’t be today. Starting at about age 15 or 16, I began to realize that people thought I was pretty. I have very long legs and at that time also had long blonde hair. I looked a bit like a Barbie doll, though not nearly as well endowed. I was 5’8″ and weighed 125 lbs. I was on the dance line so I was in great physical shape, very toned.
Did I think I was beautiful? No. Because I wasn’t. I’m not. Did other people see me that way? Yes. I learned very early not to trust that as a measure of “who” I was. And, in many ways, to resent it. Even while I exploited it. Hey, I’m human.
At one of my first job interviews, I was standing in the reception area, waiting, and a man walked by with a file folder in his hands. He took one look at me, threw the folder and all its papers into the air, dropped to his knees and begged me to marry him. Apparently this guy was the company clown and everyone there thought it was hilarious. I was not amused. Until then, I had really been hoping to get that job.
The first job I did have, as a secretary, I wrote an article for some publication the company was doing. Just for the fun of it. My boss accused me of lying about having written it and refused to even consider using it. He said it was too well written. I was 19.
I spent a lot of years trying to get people in the business world to take me seriously and recognize something other than my looks. Scraping my hair back into a tight ponytail, wearing conservative clothes, wearing glasses instead of contacts. You name it, I tried it. All most people saw was legs and hair. Socially, that was not exactly a bad thing. But I can’t even tell you how many times people have been “surprised” by my intellect because they made assumptions based on my looks.
My parents always stressed the importance of brains over looks. Both parents and all my sisters are/were incredibly intelligent people. I’m no slouch either. But the focus was always on learning more, doing better. It was never that we weren’t good enough — they thought we were amazing — just that we were capable of more. So yes, I can rattle off a handful of physical things I love about myself. There is no real value in that for me. Those things don’t involve effort or talent or achievement. Looks simply are what they are. You turn enough heads, you accept the fact that you can do that. God, this sounds so conceited, but that was my reality for many, many years.
But it is incredibly difficult for me to say I’m a great writer. Especially when I’m surrounded by other writers who I consider to be truly great, obviously so much better than I am, yet even they are saying they still have so much to learn. I know I’m not there yet and I may never consider myself to be “great” as a writer. That is not false modesty. That bar is so damn high I can barely see it, let alone touch it.
I have become addicted to the internet, I will freely admit that, and a big part of that is because for maybe the first time ever, people “see” me for my words, my brain, instead of my looks. Though it’s incredibly ironic because these days I look exactly like what I am: an overweight, middle-aged, rather frumpy mother of two who sits behind a desk most of the day. I’m not turning very many heads these days and frankly it’s a relief. Even though, you know, I’m hot.
I think when you have a history of being judged (by some, not all) solely for your looks — whether that generates praise or criticism, doesn’t matter — it makes you long for people to see something else in you, even while it makes you somewhat distrustful if they do. Any achievement or recognition in that area is so much more significant and meaningful. And difficult to accept.
Go ahead and paint me red, too, Jenny. That just means one more story for us to read, right?
And this time I sincerely apologize for the lengthy comment. I guess I’m having one of those days when it’s all about me me me. Pffft. Like that’s unusual.
Gonna go buy some Dove this weekend.
On April 19, 2007 at 7:24 pm ZaZa said...
BDB, do I know what you mean. I was never drop-dead-gorgeous, but I was very curvy and well-endowed, so I turned my share of heads. For quite a few years, people accepted that I was bright. Then I graduated from college, and suddenly people were seeing me as an airhead. WTH? They’d see the curves and my long dark hair and think I’d gotten the job because of my looks. This was in a medical school where I couldn’t believe anyone could be that dumb. No one would hire a stupid woman just because they liked the way she looked. Well, time proved me wrong when they hired a new Editor who got the job because she was blonde, bubbly and would put out any time one of the residents got a long enough break. Honest to God. They had me teaching her Medical Writing 101. One of the snottier residents, a jerk I really didn’t get along with, made some comment about if I weren’t such a snob, the job could have been mine. As if. Men. Sometimes you just want to slap them. My apologies to any GAMS who may be lurking. ;+)
Yes, Jenny, I have lots of books with that pic in them. I will go take a look. Thanks.
On April 19, 2007 at 7:44 pm Cary said...
BCB, I’m your flip-side. I’ve spent my whole life trying to fit inside my mother’s world. And in that world, being pretty or attractive or just trying was grounds for a lot of bad things.
So, my whole life, if you asked someone to describe me, you’d hear “capable”, “dependable”, “smart”, “reasoned”. You would probably never hear anyone (most of all me), say “pretty”, “attractive”, or “she’s got beautiful eyes”. Frankly, hearing anyone say that of me would have (and probably did) send me diving for the nearest functional, unflattering, downright conventional outfit I could find.
But now, TODAY, for the first time in my life, I am whole-heartedly embracing my feminine side. And you know what? That little bit of confidence is changing how people “see” me. I am, for the first time in my life, beginning to feel like a complete person and feel like I’m being seen as a complete person. I haven’t abandoned my brain. I’m still smart, capable, and dependable (unless you’re expecting me to be on-time), but I’m also pretty, with a great smile and good taste in funky jewelry. And this makes me a better person, Dove or no Dove.
On April 19, 2007 at 7:53 pm BCB said...
Oh, Cary, we might be flip sides but we’re exactly the same coin. I was actually thinking about you when I wrote that comment. Both of us have been judged by our appearance rather than by things that are significant.
BTW, when I picture you in my head, you are always wearing a sexy red sweater. And you look gorgeous.
And I’m never on time either. Nice to have at least that much control, isn’t it?
On April 19, 2007 at 7:57 pm McB said...
BCB – maybe you have a hard time saying “I’m a great writer” because its so important? Anyway, not too long but very thought provoking.
And I do get it. I’ve never been leggy and blonde; instead I’m short, very curvy, and always looked younger than I am. Nice at 45, not so nice at 21 when you are trying to get someone to take you seriously. I’ve been blessed with people in my life who looked past that and saw humor and intelligence and someone they wanted to be around. But for every one of those, there was someone who spoke slowly and patted me on the head. And yet they still walk the earth with both hands attached.
And here’s the one thing I really really like about getting older. I firmly believe that as you get older, who you really are starts to show. Both the good and the bad. What I saw in the mirror at 21 wasn’t very impressive. What I see in the mirror at 45 is someone who has developed some character, someone whose intelligence is finally starting to show in her eyes so that other people are noticing too. Hell, I’m BETTER than I was at 21, laugh lines and all.
These days my great legs have a little dimpling on the thighs, my hands are starting to show that they’ve spent time in dishwater, and my breasts no longer defy gravity without a lot of help. I’m no less proud of them.
On April 19, 2007 at 8:05 pm micki said...
(-: Some people win the lottery, BCB. The most beautiful girl in my school was also very nice, and pretty smart. But most of the “smart” girls were not knock-outs, and there were several pretty girls who had nasty dispositions and bad grades. Just like the lottery, sometimes all those blessings can be hard to bear. Thanks for sharing that.
Me, I grew up with a definite idea that you weren’t supposed to think about the body. I’ve been blaming it on too much Victorian literature (where vanity and looking in the mirror was a bad, bad, bad trait), but it may also come from my family’s Catholic background. Many religions look on the body as a temporary vessel — a disposable item.
Getting older, I’m turning more and more to a “this life might be all we’ve got, so make the most of it” philosophy. I have a strong feeling it doesn’t hurt to hedge your bets, either way, and the old motto “healthy mind in a healthy body” really resonates with me. (-: Not enough to actually diet seriously, but still, I’m doing more with exercise and eating healthy foods than I did when I was younger.
I think there is such a thing as too much vanity, and it can be unhealthy (when it leads to dangerous dieting, radical surgery and mental self-abuse), but the no-vanity approach is also dangerous. I think we need a bit of vanity to keep healthy and fit — it’s easier to lose weight because the jeans are too tight than to lose weight because one day, far down the line, my knee joints are going to thank me for it.
I try to walk the middle road. But anyone who has tried to balance on top of a see-saw or exercise ball knows that the middle can be an exhausting place to be, too.
On April 19, 2007 at 8:08 pm Jennifer Talty said...
BCB – First. I have met you. You are far from frumpy. Personally, I think you ARE beautiful – inside and out.
Interesting about the whole brains over looks things because I grew up with the exact opposite. Looks over brains. Of course I was told I didn’t have any brains so I might as well build on what I had, which I was told, wasn’t much (hence the over sensative issues with the boobs). Funny, I used to do beauty pagents. I was once told I didn’t interview well. Wasn’t pretty enough. What? What does my looks have to do with being interviewed?
I wasn’t noticed either for my brains (only lack of them) or for my looks (cute, but not model like) until I was in my late 20′s. Of course this had more to do with the fact that I finally realized I’m not stupid and I’m not ugly.
My issue with my body however has nothing to do with beauty because I truly believe beauty is in the eye of the beholder. While away on vacation I was sitting at the pool and the nice waitress came over and sat down next to me and we started talking. I had my laptop and she was curious since she had seen me everyday with it and she wanted to know what I was doing. She didn’t think I should be working on vacation. Anyway, this guy walked buy and she noticed I was watching him. She leaned over and said, “YOu think he’s hot?” I said, “Yep.” She said. “Nope,” then pointed across the pool. “Now that guy is hot.” I thought, No! Gross. He is so not hot. So not my type. (okay, a married woman can look. There is nothing wrong with that.) We laughed and then sized up the rest of the guys at the pool. It was a lot of fun. We had very different taste in men.
My point is that yes, we attach what we like to what is pleasing to the eye. But my pretty blue eyes do nothing for the guy who likes green or brown eyes. My strong calves (large calves) might be ugly to a guy who likes really skinny legs. It’s perception. I don’t think my boobs are ugly. Their boobs. What’s not to like about boobs. I just don’t like that they not the same perky boobs they were when I was 20 something. I want perky.
But I will also say, again, that I think once we get to know someone, and like them for who the are, their looks are actually more appealing to us. I’m not sure how to explain this. I’ve met lots of “beautiful” people, but that is superficial. It’s what is on the inside that I really see. That keeps me coming back for more.
Yeah, here I go again contradicting myself because if I am having a bad hair day, watch out. The day is ruined.
We already use Dove soap. HOuse is stocked.
On April 19, 2007 at 8:37 pm Lori said...
BCB: You may have noticed in the past that I often have this strange need to argue with you, but I recognize the truth in your words and experiences too. Instead of trying to figure what that is all about, I’ve decided to say something about my experiences that is true.
My father has told me he thinks I am beautiful a million different times in a million different ways. Inside. Outside. Everyside. And I believe him every time.
I am beautiful to my father, and I value that.
On April 19, 2007 at 9:28 pm BCB said...
Lori: LOL! Is that what you’re doing all the time? Arguing? And here I thought it was just your subtle MN humour. You’re beautiful to a whole bunch of us.
Jen wrote: “Of course I was told I didn’t have any brains–”
Grrrr. What she neglects to mention is that she is also dyslexic. Only no one knew that back when she was struggling through school and being told she either wasn’t trying hard enough or she was stupid. The fact that this woman is now a published author leaves me with nothing but humbled admiration. She is smart as hell. And beautiful.
And yes, I am rather frumpy. I’m fine with it.
On April 19, 2007 at 9:34 pm Jennifer Talty said...
Grrrrr, right back. You are not frumpy.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dyslexic and beautiful with lots of wrinkles and I still hate my breasts.
On April 19, 2007 at 9:42 pm Sheryl said...
The more I care about someone, the better looking they become. The wonderful thing about the Internet is that I “see” people for themselves, grow to admire, respect and care for them long before we actually meet. You’re all beautiful to me. even when we don’t agree
On April 19, 2007 at 9:52 pm Jenny said...
Okay, it’s my blog. You can’t say you hate anything about yourself. Only what you like. We are not going down that road.
Everything else about this thread I love. It makes me feel great to read these posts.
I’d say more but I have twelve different boxes and bottles of Dove to explore.
However, I have found one huge flaw in the Dove campaign: Who the hell picked out that hideous color for the packaging? THAT was their idea of a positive color for Pro Age? Dull Burgundy? My grandmother had drapes and a carpet in that. It’s the prime Ugly Bridesmaid’s Dress color. Whoever thought up the commercial must have looked at the packaging and thought, “Morons.”
The shape’s good, though.
On April 19, 2007 at 11:02 pm roben said...
Okay, so I came in from my evening walk, tossed a couple of chicken breasts on the George Forman Grill (I love George) and checked the blog. Damn you guys are prolific. Next thing I’m sniffing the air and thinking something’s burning, so thanks to you Jenny Crusie, I got tough burned chicken tonight. *grin*
Just wanted to say I tossed the question of three things you love about yourself to my walking group and got varied reactions. Everyone came up with a but … so I said, “No, Jenny’s the boss and she say’s no buts, unless your talking about your rear end. It has to be a firm acknowledgement.”
By the time we were half way around the lake everyone had come up with three honest answers and were so enthusiastic I couldn’t shut them up. But, the interesting thing is the tangents those questions took each women on, some spoke of their husbands and how they thought the guys viewed them, other’s spoke of upbringing, others spoke of what they would do to themselves if they had a few spare bucks and why, and others commiserated on the latest lackluster dating experience. And all thanks to you Jenny for starting this dialogue. Thanks.
And now I’m going to pour a glass of red wine (for my health) and toast women everywhere. We’re the bomb!
On April 19, 2007 at 11:16 pm Penny said...
I honestly cannot think of three things I like about my physical self right now. I have a medical condition that gave me 40 pounds of fluid almost literally overnight and so it makes me look like the Michelin man but I can think of two things I like at other times. My eyes are my best attribute. They show all my emotion and are varying shades of blue I am told. I like my grey hair at the sides of my head.
I am 65 years old. I had seen the Dove commercials (I am Canadian)but had not tried the product until I saw the ProAge BodyWash in the drugstore and decided to try it. My skin has been very dry and stretched because of the swelling but since I have been using the body wash my skin is much better. It feels smooth and wonderful and is not anywhere near as dry. I love the product. The drugstore put it on sale this week and I bought more but noticed that two parts of the shelf were already empty. I hope more people will buy it. I was a copywriter for a short time and I think the whole campaign is brilliant.
I must tell you that my 16 year old grandson was visiting and had a shower. Instead of using the Irish Spring that I had opened for him he used the Dove. I didn’t say anything because I didn’t want to embarass him. The next time he came he did the same thing so I took him aside and pointed out that it was a product for older people. He said he knew but he liked it and if I didn’t mind he was going to use it.
Go fill your trunks. You won’t be sorry.
On April 19, 2007 at 11:20 pm Karen Templeton said...
Okay, I’m responding before reading all the comments, but the vagina thing stopped me in my tracks. Because, um, even *I* don’t look at mine. So I should worry about what anybody else thinks?
But three things I like about my body (bearing in mind that I’m 55, bore five kids, and nobody’s ever gonna see my midsection nekked again, either…)
1. I’m short, but 20 years of ballet gave me great legs and feet. I adore wearing sexy high heels and skirts short enough to flaunt my calves. So there.
2. My eyes, big and hazel and still great fun to make up (subtle peaches and browns, mostly — we’re not talking the aging showgirl look, here).
3. My skin, very, very fair and still nearly wrinkle-free.
And as a sidenote, I nursed all five kids, am still an A cup (remember being told, when I was preggers with #1, by a lovely Polish girl I worked with, “Vis zose tits, ze kid vill starve to death.” He didn’t.) and don’t really sag. God knows, nobody’d mistake me for twenty, but for 55, they’re just fine, thank you.
On April 20, 2007 at 12:04 am roben said...
Awww. Downundergal! Scuffs toes of new sneakers in the desert sand … you’re so kind! Thanks for the vote of confidence but it’s all an act. The older I get the better I am at carrying it off. I was a Theatre Major. Just kidding, you know I’m a nurse like you and proud as hell to say it. But heck, we can use our imagination, right? And you, my dear, have magnificent hair, and a cute hubby. *grin*
On April 20, 2007 at 12:08 am Jenny said...
You know, the vagina thing stopped me, too. I’d heard about it before and thought, “Oh, hell, you’re kidding,” but in the context of this discussion it’s beyond bizarre.
What idiot convinced these women that anybody who was getting that close a look at labia would be in a mood to CRITICIZE? Don’t people think these things through?
(And anybody who would criticize should be denied access anyway. Morons. The world is filled with morons, I say. Not anybody here, of course. In fact, ignore me, I just lost a huge chunk of revisions because Word went into the Spinning Ball of Death. I’m sullen.)
And I really love my legs. Just thought I should mention that again.
On April 20, 2007 at 12:22 am cary said...
As you said, it’s your blog, Jenny. So, thank you. You provide an incredible space for this community. Not only do we get a chance to laugh at your adventures and observations, but we also get a chance to push ourselves and think about things that really matter – to us, to women, to society as a whole.
And yeah, me, ‘cuz the shrink says this last week has been a major breakthrough. And this community is responsible for pushing me there.
On April 20, 2007 at 12:31 am Jenny said...
Cary, that makes me feel wonderful. I’m so happy for you, and I’m betting everybody here is cheering for you, too.
On April 20, 2007 at 1:24 am Robin said...
I’ve always been a fan of Dove products, and though I’m not yet part of this demographic, I’m buying some of this stuff simply to contribute to its commercial success. Frankly, I don’t care how crassly profit oriented ANY of these ads are, because at the very least they contribute to a new perspective on the way we, as women, appreciate our physical evolution. We are *so* our own worst enemies when it comes to judging our maturing bodies, despite all the amazing stuff they manage to pull off without us even noticing.
I remember being really struck by Christiane Northrup’s book, Women’s Bodies, Women’s Wisdom, and her anecdote about women in cultures that don’t see menopause as the dividing line between wife and crone. She pointed out that in societies where older women are revered (or at least not demonized), women suffer NO negative symptoms of menopause. When you think of the industry we’ve created just around menopause, it’s sort of horrifying to think that we’re creating the very problems we then must scramble and suffer to solve. But I can’t help but think that Northrup is on to something significant.
On April 20, 2007 at 3:12 am downundergal said...
Yes, Roben, he’s one of my best assets too
On April 20, 2007 at 6:22 am Jennifer Talty said...
Yes, this is a wonderful place. Thank you Jenny.
Cary – you are amazing and I love you lots.
I love myself, flaws an all, inside and out. I’m a wonderful, decent, fun, loving woman. I’m cute too.
On April 20, 2007 at 7:55 am Conscripted Cherry said...
Cary, I’m so PROUD of you
it has been a thinking week for lots of us- and I for one am getting ready to implement some change in my world- so, thank you Jenny and the community of amazing people you have brought together- heading off to be scared out of my wits, which is its own kind of exhiliration
On April 20, 2007 at 10:45 am Marcia in OK said...
Go Girls! Amazing stuff here (CC, Jen-T, BCB, MCB – just Wow!)
Spreading the word and opening Dialogue is so important. Last night I sent 12 People home with Homework for next weeks class. (5 men & 7 women) 1) List 5 positive adjectives that describe you 2) List 3 things you like about your physical self. I heard all kinds of grumbling as they were leaving the room.
Part of our discussion last night included “If you could change something about your physical self – would you? If so, what would you change?”
Almost all the women said they change at least one thing, but a few said they’d change at least 3 things. (Some of the things were: boobs, weight, wrinkles, baby tummys) Only one of the men said he’d change anything. (He said he’d make himself taller.)
Very interstesting discussions going on all around.
On April 20, 2007 at 1:25 pm Eric said...
After reading these posts, I can’t resist: do you all know Lucille Clifton’s poem “homage to my hips”? If not, you should, so here goes. (Btw, there are no caps in the original–that’s not just me being coy.)
homage to my hips
these hips are big hips
they need space to
move around in
they don’t fit into little
petty places. these hips
are free hips
they don’t like to be held back.
these hips have never been enslaved,
they go where they want to go
they do what they want to do.
these hips are mighty hips.
these hips are magic hips.
i have known them
to put a spell on a man and
spin him like a top!
Dang, I love that poem. Love to teach it, love to say it (especially with a nice long pause between “to” and “move around in”), and I don’t even HAVE hips. A little thank you gift to all of you–
On April 20, 2007 at 1:37 pm Jenny said...
Eric, thank you, I’d forgotten about Clifton’s poem. I love it, too, and it’s perfect here.
I have hips, and that poem always makes me want them to be bigger.
On April 20, 2007 at 1:55 pm Louisa said...
Jenny wrote:
“I also wonder sometimes what telling people my age does to the books; that is, do they read my books differently after they know that I’m not a happening thirty-something? That’s the danger of public appearances, too. There are authors who are not allowed to go on book tours because the way they look would undercut their sales, although the two instances I’ve heard of were both men.”
This is a real concern for me. I’ve just now got my life to the point where I have a moment to write, and after looking at the author’s websites I see that I’m a lot older than the published authors. Maybe I should go for another genre.
About that plastic Surgery for vaginas (or labias) thing. How is this different from the female “circumcision” practiced in Africa?
Yow!
I have thick gray/blonde hair, great fingernails, and my collarbones show up nicely.
Going for some Dove. Yeah, the soap, too.
On April 20, 2007 at 2:27 pm Najida said...
Three physical things about myself that I like?
My boobs (I grew them myself)— I plan on having dowager cleavage until I’m 99.
My eyes. Pretty color and my lashes are long.
My mouth. Like my boobs, I grew it myself
On April 20, 2007 at 3:54 pm McB said...
I was thinking about what ZaZa said up above about the negative responses probably not being ringers. Sad but true. Sad because I think it smacks of insecurity. Like that one 35yo woman. Now that she knows how her husband views older women she’ll be paranoid for the rest of her life.
On April 20, 2007 at 4:00 pm Conscripted Cherry said...
I love the commercial that started all this- so I showed it to some co-workers yesterday and today- got great response from the most of them- but one really saddened me she is late 50s/early 60s, and her comments included “yuck” and “well, I guess if you’re in shape” and “why would anyone want to see someone that age without their clothes on” Guess who’s going to be my new project?
On April 20, 2007 at 5:06 pm Ericka Scott said...
Absolutely loved the commercial. I’m now sending it to every woman I know (most of whom are definitely over 35). It’s great to see a commercial where beautiful isn’t defined by anything on the outer layer. . . beauty lies within! Go Dove!
On April 20, 2007 at 5:50 pm orangehands said...
Pam W: I didn’t know they weren’t cruelty free. dammit.
Ingrid: never saw the big Barbie before. cool.
for one of the women groups i was in during HS, we had one day where we went to one of the girl’s houses and had to sit in front of the mirror, naming things we loved. very few of the girls could get through it without crying.
BCB:
i knew these two sisters. one was “gorgeous”, the other was “average”. the gorgeous one was always told how pretty she was; the average one was always told how smart she was. the first one feels like the only thing she can do is look pretty, and the second one feels no one can love her. the sisters showed me that when raising a kid, it’s important to focus on their brains, but it’s also important to make sure they feel good about themselves physically. mind and body health. and spirit.
it’s long, so i won’t post it, but Alix Olson wrote a poem called “Sticks”. a friend performed it once- wow. http://www.alixolson.com/lyrics/BLT_sticks.html
On April 20, 2007 at 5:56 pm Jenny said...
And it’s getting long on the comment list, so I added another post, “Magic Hips,” that plays off of this one so we can keep on posting, just with a shorter scroll time.